Montréal Transit Developments

[felix123]

By far the largest? Currently they have 64 stations in Montreal and 4 more in surrounding regions. Once the new light rail in Montreal opens in 4 years, there'll be 8 new stops in Montreal on the Deux-Montagnes branch, 2 on the South-shore Branch, 2 on the Airport branch, and 4 on the Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue branch along with 3 outside of Montreal on the south shore and 4 on Laval and the north shore. That brings the total number to 80 in Montreal and 11 more in surrounding areas, bringing the total to 91.

Toronto currently has 73 in the city and 2 north of the city. In 2 years another 21 open on Line 5 (all in the city) and in 2023 Line 6 opens with 17 additional stops (all in the city) bringing the total to 111 in the city and a total of 113. Meanwhile, outside the city, the Hurontario light rail is currently scheduled to open in 2022 (though will surely slip still) with another 19 stops. Subway expansions in the 2020s on Line 1 and the Ontario Line could add another 16 stations based on current plans.

Montreal may have more kilometres of track, because of the very long distance between stations - but with fewer new stops, I don't think you can say "by far the largest" RT system with only 80 planned by 2023 compared to 111 in Toronto. And only 91 planned including nearby communities compared to 131 in/around Toronto.

There's also the 33 stops on the light rail in Hamilton and Kitchener - though that's probably unfair to include, as they won't be connected by every-15 minute commuter rail service to the rest of the region for many years, unlike Hurontario.

And of course all that ignores that GO is moving to every 15-minute RER service on parts of at least 5 lines, with Lakeshore East already running every 15 minutes for part of the day, and Lakeshore West currently on a (bizarre) 15-15-30 schedule. I'm not aware of where RTM's plans to increase Exo service are at ... if anything I'd think service will be decreasing with plans to close 1 of the current 6 lines, and shorten a second.

Line 6 and Hurontario aren't RT though. Nor are Kitchener and Hamilton. Line 5 is debatable but it will certainly be a huge improvement regardless of whether it's technically rapid or not.

RER does seem to be moving ahead slowly, but I'll wait for construction to be underway before I give the title back to Toronto, which with its 70% greater population than mtl and economic pre-eminence should have Canada's largest RT system. exo is definitely on the back-burner, which is a shame. The upside are the 2 announcements re: potential REM phase 2 and the Dorval extension. Blue line is also being extended.

We are cheering Montréal on because it's setting a great example for the country. You seem to think that this detracts from Toronto in some way, which is just not the case.

 

[p_xavier]

Just to state again the "official" projects under study for eventual construction.

By the CDPQi:
- REM extension to Laval
- REM extension to Chambly/St-Jean-sur-Richelieu.
- REM/Streetcar/LRT from downtown Montreal to Marie-Victorin and to Pointe-aux-Trembles

By the ARTM:
- Metro/Streetcar/LRT in the Yellow line alignment
- Berri-UQÀM relief
- Streetcar/LRT from Longueuil to La Prairie

By the STM
- Metro Blue line extension


Not official yet, and to be studied in the short term by the ARTM as per the transportation minister:
- Metro Orange line extension to connect to the REM at Bois-Franc

Other projects being studied by the ARTM but not on the government radar
- Metro/REM Pink line
- Metro Orange line extension to Laval
- REM/Mascouche line compatibility

Other projects studied by the Federal Government:
- REM Dorval extension
- REM VIA HFR compatibility

 

[nfitz]

Line 6 and Hurontario aren't RT though.

Finch West is most certainly rapid transit - it says so right on the Metrolinx website for the project - http://www.metrolinx.com/en/greaterregion/projects/finchwest-lrt.aspx

The website also indicates that Hurontario and Hamilton as rapid transit. Waterloo is a bit more of a hybrid - parts of it are more separated than the other light rail projects, while other bits seem a bit closer to streetcars.

We are cheering Montréal on because it's setting a great example for the country. You seem to think that this detracts from Toronto in some way, which is just not the case.

It's showing significant advances, after years of stagnation (it's been 30 years since the last Metro station was opened on the island!), but the bizarre "grass is always greener" and various mistruths posted here about Montreal are stunning.

Especially trying to pretend that Toronto is also not expanding considerably, and those who were trying to tell the tail that the Montreal project only began a couple of years ago - despite the studies for various aspects of it dating back to the early 1960s (which is why much of the central section was once to be numbered Line 3 (the red line), and the plans for light rail to the South Shore have been discussed extensively as one of AMT's Grand Projects for 20 years with construction starting in 2015 after years of design following a 2007 announcement.

I object to such clearly false claims as "by far the largest RT system in Canada" when it won't even be close to having the most stops!

By the ARTM:
- Metro/Streetcar/LRT in the Yellow line alignment
- Berri-UQÀM relief
- Streetcar/LRT from Longueuil to La Prairie

Oh, are we including streetcars as well as rapid transit?

By the STM
- Metro Blue line extension

Isn't that the same 5-km (5 station) Blue Line extension that has been announced numerous times in the last 35 years? Gosh, an earlier Blue Line extension to Montreal-Nord was actually shown on the maps in the trains back when I lived there in the early 1980s! Does that mean the other Metro lines that were once shown on the maps in the 1980s are dead, such as the White Line along Pie-IX, the Orange line extension to Poirier and Bois Franc and the Blue Line extension to Montreal West and Lafleur?

And then there was that shorter-lived study to extend the Yellow Line up to Sherbrooke, then west along Sherbrooke and back down south to another river crossing. Never went further than a study ... but one day Montreal is going to have to deal with adding capacity parallel to the two existing lines through downtown ... the same way Toronto is going to have to one day further supplement the Yonge corridor, especially north of Bloor.

 

[ViveleCanada]

... if anything I'd think service will be decreasing with plans to close 1 of the current 6 lines, and shorten a second.

Those lines are most definitely not getting a reduction in service. The one being shut down (the Deux-Montagnes) is getting replaced by REM with the other being shortened because the Mount Royal tunnel will be reserved for REM so passengers will need to transfer (from the Mascouche line) to get into Montreal. REM is essentially the equivalent of a GO line being upgraded to Metro standards. Not to mention Montreal doesn't sprawl as significantly as Toronto along with having a lower population so there isn't much in the way of demand for transit beyond the island. The Montreal area sees the population dip significantly once you leave Laval to the North or Longueuil to the south.

 

[p_xavier]

Finch West is most certainly rapid transit - it says so right on the Metrolinx website for the project - http://www.metrolinx.com/en/greaterregion/projects/finchwest-lrt.aspx

The website also indicates that Hurontario and Hamilton as rapid transit.

I object to such clearly false claims as "by far the largest RT system in Canada" when it won't even be close to having the most stops!

Oh, are we including streetcars as well as rapid transit?

If Metrolinx says it it must be true!. There's just as rapid transit as bus rapid transit. I don't consider LRT rapid transit unless it's in it's exclusive ROW and is without any street crossing.

Montreal will probably have the longest RT transit system though.

I was just saying which projects are under study, I don't consider streetcars to be any form of rapid transit.

 

[nfitz]

Those lines are most definitely not getting a reduction in service. The one being shut down (the Deux-Montagnes) is getting replaced by REM with the other being shortened because the Mount Royal tunnel will be reserved for REM so passengers will need to transfer (from the Mascouche line) to get into Montreal.

Those on the Deux Montagnes line won't see a service reduction (though they seem to have far less places to sit, with shorter trains that will only be single-deck, and with more standing space than current).

But you've lost the context, which was "RTM's plans to increase Exo service".REM won't be an Exo service. And the Exo service on line through Repentigny will certainly be cut, as it will no longer go downtown, forcing everyone to transfer to REM!

Surely, there's going to be less Exo service - or are there plans to increase service on any of the 4 other lines - none of which approach the level of service on the Deux Montagnes line. The old Hudson line doesn't even seem to have as much service as it did when I used to commute on it 30 years ago, with less stations, and less counter-peak trains. I don't think peak and off-peak service has been increased either, at a glance ... which is surprising after so many years. (though certainly the St. Hilaire train is far more frequent than when I rode it in the 1980s, along with the other two new lines).

 

[nfitz]

If Metrolinx says it it must be true!. There's just as rapid transit as bus rapid transit. I don't consider LRT rapid transit unless it's in it's exclusive ROW and is without any street crossing.

If you don't consider light rail as rapid transit, then I'm not sure what that says about the REM, which it's own website brands as light rail! LOL!

Montreal will probably have the longest RT transit system though.

Only if one is desperate enough to twist the definition, to include Montreal light rail, exclude Toronto light rail, and ignore full RER service that runs every 15-minutes off-peak - only slightly worse than the Orange and Green lines were running in Montreal late at night until recently (every 14-minutes scheduled - I'd swear I've stood in Lionel-Groulx longer than that)! I'm not sure the need to make such comparisons in the first place ... seems to be compensating for something!

 

[begratto]

If you don't consider light rail as rapid transit, then I'm not sure what that says about the REM, which it's own website brands as light rail! LOL!

English is an afterthough on the REM website, whose management team is French-speaking. On the French site, they call it a métro léger (light métro). They didn't update all of their English pages, but they now call it a metro, even in English (which you seem to think is the only one that is relevant *sigh*) : Discover the REM's metro cars

Sydney and every other system that use the same trains call their system "metro", not LRT.

In most people's mind, the REM is not comparable to the Eglinton and Hurontario LRTs, as it fully grade-separated, with bigger trains, complete enclosed stations and full-automatization.

Anyway, we've had this discussion before, multiple times.

Only if one is desperate enough to twist the definition, to include Montreal light rail, exclude Toronto light rail, and ignore full RER service that runs every 15-minutes off-peak - only slightly worse than the Orange and Green lines were running in Montreal late at night until recently (every 14-minutes scheduled - I'd swear I've stood in Lionel-Groulx longer than that)! I'm not sure the need to make such comparisons in the first place ... seems to be compensating for something!

You're comparing 2010 after-11pm service in Montreal to 2023+ daytime service in Toronto? Really?

Anyhow, the frequency is now every 5 minutes or better until 10pm, then it goes down gradually to every 10 minutes before closing time.

 

[nfitz]

English is an afterthough on the REM website, whose management team is French-speaking. On the French site, they call it a métro léger (light métro). They didn't update all of their English pages, but they now call it a metro, even in English (which you seem to think is the only one that is relevant *sigh*) :

Yes, we had that discussion earlier ... occasionally they toss in metro but normally they call it light rail, as does the media. Their pages are bilingual, so we look at their English pages.

I don't see any mention of Metro in that article you linked ... or of Light Metro. The article literally says ""The REM’s internal configuration offers the usual light rail experience ". Yes, the headline uses the word metro ... but the article doesn't even mention it!

In a Canadian and Toronto context it's light rail. We don't call similar systems (even grade-separated) in Ottawa, Calgary, and Edmonton as Light Metro!

Anyway, we've had this discussion before, multiple times.

And you still persist in using non-Canadian terms ... they call the trunk of a car in Australia a 'boot' and their cars have 'tyres'. Surely Australian lingo is as relevant as a dingo!

You're comparing 2010 after-11pm service in Montreal to 2023+ daytime service in Toronto? Really?

We often consider 15 minutes as being frequent. That's similar to what we'll see in Waterloo on the weekends. And while the REM frequency on the central and south-short section off-peak may be every 6 minutes ... there's 3 branches to the northwest ... so what's that, every 12 minutes? Every 18 minutes? Is that rapid transit?

Skytrain service off-peak on the Canada Line, once it branches in Richmond (i.e. to the airprot) drops to every 20 minutes - is that rapid transit?

Anyhow, the frequency is now every 5 minutes or better until 10pm, then it goes down gradually to every 10 minutes before closing time.

I was waiting almost 10 minutes in the middle of the day last Saturday (9 days ago) at Cote-Vertu, and I just missed a train - it was almost 10 minutes until the next one! And there were lots of people! I don't believe it's no worse than every 10 minutes when it's quieter ... yeah, even STM's website says the Green line drops to every 12 minutes ... same for Orange. And those are the two busiest lines! That doesn't even meet the TTC definition of frequent service!

If every 12 minutes and every 20 minutes is rapid transit, then why isn't the 23-km UPE, that is running now ... not in 2023? The answer is because someone is desperate to define a network that makes Montreal much larger ... despite Toronto being ahead in virtually every category currently (more stations, more km, more subway passengers, more bus passengers, more commuter rail km, more commuter rail passengers ... more drivers wearing turbans ...)

Yes ... the REM adds a lot of subway kilometres ... though only 23 new subway stations.

 

[felix123]

Only if one is desperate enough to twist the definition, to include Montreal light rail, exclude Toronto light rail, and ignore full RER service that runs every 15-minutes off-peak - only slightly worse than the Orange and Green lines were running in Montreal late at night until recently (every 14-minutes scheduled - I'd swear I've stood in Lionel-Groulx longer than that)! I'm not sure the need to make such comparisons in the first place ... seems to be compensating for something!

Buddy take a hint. It's you against everyone else here, and that's because you keep turning this into a fight. It's not.
Actually if you think back to the title of this thread, it's about Montreal having the largest subway system. If we're talking subway/metro, then yes, Montréal will take that title (from Vancouver in terms of length and from Toronto by number of stations) and probably won't be challenged for a very long time. And just as I and everyone else considers the Vancouver SkyTrain to be a metro, so too is the REM.

That said, I'm very hopeful about the relief line, er 'Ontario Line'.

 

[nfitz]

Buddy take a hint. It's you against everyone else here, and that's because you keep turning this into a fight.

Please don't use the term "buddy" - I find it patronizing and condescending - it seems very rude to me.

Not sure most people disagree with me ... 2 or 3 seem to have taken positions, that can only be supported with some interesting and inconsistent definitions - I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies.

Actually if you think back to the title of this thread, it's about Montreal having the largest subway system. If we're talking subway/metro, then yes, Montréal will take that title (from Vancouver in terms of length and from Toronto by number of stations) and probably won't be challenged for a very long time.

It won't beat Toronto on number of subway stops. It's already been revealed that TTC and Metrolinx consider Line 5 (and presumably Line 6) as subway - which will put Toronto at 113 stops - well ahead of the 91 in Montreal. Though the 102 km in Toronto (120 km including phase 1 of Hurontario and 143 km including the UPE) is less than the 126 km of the Montreal subway (including REM phases 1 through 3).

Sure ...if you count light rail in Toronto branded as Subway as not subway, but count the light rail in Montreal not branded as Metro as subway, then Montreal has more subway stations. But do they have more subway restaurants ... and are their subway sandwiches and inch or two longer?

That said, I'm very hopeful about the relief line, er 'Ontario Line'.

I was more hopeful before Ford started interfering in the project, and deferred the Line 2 extension by 3-4 more years ... but if they pull that off, the 4 projets announced in April (Ontario Line aka Line 3 and extensions to Line 1, 2, and 5) add about 35 more kilometres - perhaps entirely grade-separated to the Toronto "subway".

 

[ViveleCanada]

It won't beat Toronto on number of subway stops. It's already been revealed that TTC and Metrolinx consider Line 5 (and presumably Line 6) as subway - which will put Toronto at 113 stops - well ahead of the 91 in Montreal. Though the 102 km in Toronto (120 km including phase 1 of Hurontario) is less than the 126 km of the Montreal subway (including REM phases 1 through 3).

Sure ...if you count light rail in Toronto branded as Subway as not subway, but count the light rail in Montreal not branded as Metro as subway, then Montreal has more subway stations. But do they have more subway restaurants ... and are their subway sandwiches and inch or two longer?

No offense, but you really have to be more skeptical about what government agencies advertise. the eastern section of line 5 and pretty much all of our planned light rail lines do not fit the definition of a subway system:

Link to document: https://web.archive.org/web/2014022...oteam/YVA/URP_Fundamental_Requirements_EN.pdf

(I) Metros: UGT systems operated on their own right of way and segregated from general road and pedestrian traffic. They are consequently designed for operations in tunnel, viaducts or on surface level but with physical separation in such a way that inadvertent access is not possible. In different parts of the world Metro systems are also known as the underground, the subway or the tube. Rail systems with specific construction issues operating on a segregated guideway (e.g. monorail, rack railways) are also treated as Metros as long as they are designated as part of the urban public transport network.

^The American Public Transportation Board also uses a similar definition along with Wikipedia (which grabbed the definition from the American Public Transportation Board) also defining Rapid Transit to be completely grade-seperated from all traffic. All our light rail plans have LRV's coming into contact with other traffic. Even Montreal is guilty of using the "Asian" definition of light rail which defines the weight of the vehicle rather than its characteristics. Governments will gladly change the definition of what counts as a metro on the dime like how Los Angeles promotes its Light Rail system as part of its "Metro Rail" system. Ottawa's Confederation Line is a Light Metro (completely grade-separated), but you wouldn't know because the politicians refuse to publicize it as such. They probably advertise Line 5 and 6 as part of the subway to avoid having to market an entirely new system which would just be too confusing for the average commuter.

But you've lost the context, which was "RTM's plans to increase Exo service".REM won't be an Exo service. And the Exo service on line through Repentigny will certainly be cut, as it will no longer go downtown, forcing everyone to transfer to REM!

Why would it matter what brand of service it is? GO could rebrand to the TTC tomorrow and the average commuter wouldn't notice if all they did was repaint the trains (referring to your comment how one EXO line would be cancelled and the other one shortened). Sure it's inconvenient for Mascouche line commuters, the same way I was inconvenienced when VIVA Orange stopped direct service to York University, or the other YU students who have to transfer cause there's no bus service into York now. Now I either have to transfer or walk to one of the TYSSE stations. Sure it adds a transfer, but the amount of service added helps counter the inconvenience the same way you wouldn't want to have every single bus line go into Toronto just for the sake of "Transfer-free" travel. EXO service on the other lines I haven't looked into so can't comment on that.

 

[nfitz]

No offense, but you really have to be more skeptical about what government agencies advertise. the eastern section of line 5 and pretty much all of our planned light rail lines do not fit the definition of a subway system: ....The American Public Transportation Board also uses a similar definition

I'm not familiar with the American Public Transportation Board (APTB) but we've discussed previously that the American Public Transportation Association (APTA) doesn't put Line 3 (along with the Vancouver Skytrain) in the same category as Lines 1, 2, and 4. Bizarrely, they put Line 3 in the Intermediate rail category but put the Vancovuer Skytrain along with the Detroit and JFK Peoplemover's into the Automated Guideway category. Meanwhile they even more bizarrely, put both the Seattle Link and Seattle streetcar in the light rail category, along with Toronto streetcars, Edmonton's LRT, Calgary's LRT, and Ottawa' Trillium line!

I'm not sure trust the APTA's definitions and consistency in applying them!

 

[chinesehorse]

Kind of off topic, but does anybody know why the REM project would be considered light rail? The vehicles being used are used on heavy-rail rapid transit lines elsewhere and I can't see an obvious difference between the ones REM will be using and say, the ones the Sydney Metro are using (both Alstom Metropolis family vehicles).

 

[ViveleCanada]

I'm not familiar with the American Public Transportation Board (APTB) but we've discussed previously that the American Public Transportation Association (APTA) doesn't put Line 3 (along with the Vancouver Skytrain) in the same category as Lines 1, 2, and 4. Bizarrely, they put Line 3 in the Intermediate rail category but put the Vancovuer Skytrain along with the Detroit and JFK Peoplemover's into the Automated Guideway category. Meanwhile they even more bizarrely, put both the Seattle Link and Seattle streetcar in the light rail category, along with Toronto streetcars, Edmonton's LRT, Calgary's LRT, and Ottawa' Trillium line!

I'm not sure trust the APTA's definitions and consistency in applying them!

Hmm. Definitely inconsistencies along the board, but it doesn't take away you are arguing that apples are oranges. I looked more into the Metrolinx site and they do not claim that any of the light rail projects are on par with Subway/Metro. The addition to the subway map is purely for commuters convinence and simplified wayfinding. Using your argument I could claim the 900 Airport Express is also now a subway because it appears on the subway map. Or that Los Angeles BRT network can be considered a subway because they included it on their "Metro Rail" map.

Kind of off topic, but does anybody know why the REM project would be considered light rail? The vehicles being used are used on heavy-rail rapid transit lines elsewhere and I can't see an obvious difference between the ones REM will be using and say, the ones the Sydney Metro are using (both Alstom Metropolis family vehicles).

From my research, REM has more of the characteristics of a Light Rail system in Asian countries where their systems are completely grade-separated, just that they use smaller vehicles than conventional metro systems (ex. Singapore LRT). I guess the politicians were trying to emphasis on the smaller vehicles in Montreal's case. Similar to how London calls it's DLR Light Rail despite being more similar to Vancouver's system. Not confirmed, but most logical explanation in my opinion given REM is characteristically more akin to a metro system.