nfitz
Superstar
What a bizarre comment; there are signs around the SRT that refer to it as a subway! I'm sure the Eglinton line will be called a subway at times - particularily if they grade-separate and connect to the SRT.
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Montréal Transit Developments
- Thread starter Ansem
- Start date
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Though it stops for snow, the SRT doesn't run down the middle of the street stopping at red lights.
nfitz
Superstar
All the trains stop at red lights - they are called signals.
There won't be signals for cars in the tunnel along Eglinton between Keele and Liard.
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golodhendil
Active Member
Just to confuse people a bit more, in a casual conversation Bostonians will actually refer to even the on-street sections of the Green Line as "subway" (among other names like more commonly "the T", or "trolley" for the elderfolks), by virtue of the fact that the line is continuous with a subway section.
Not that I necessarily agree with this terminology for surface-running LRT, but something to think about.
Not that I necessarily agree with this terminology for surface-running LRT, but something to think about.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The only confusing thing here is why people see any benefit from calling a streetcar ROW on Eglinton a subway when most of it is not grade-separated but instead runs down the middle of the street stopping at red lights. What's the cost up to now, $4B? If we're gonna spend that much money replacing buses, why not build real rapid transit? The TTC will still find a way to mess up the operations, but at least it could get built right.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Yeah, and even after all the overruns, it still cost half as much per kilometre as the TTC claims it costs to build a subway.
Wait...do you mean Eglinton? Are you sure there will be no signals? I think it would be unprecedented to operate a line like that visually.
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kettal
Banned
A subway is a subway whether it goes at a snails pace and costs a trillion dollars, or if it is built for a dime and is lightning fast. This has nothing to do with the definition of a subway. Deal with it.
Amphibius
Banned
^^ Just curious, but do you define the Bay Street streetcar tunnel's 509/510 operation as a subway?
But semiexclusive ROW for the Crosstown LRT would guarantee it a somewhat fast operation in parts (25-30kmph). If some of the minor stops were to be taken out, it'd go even faster. As a subway line it's too expensive. We'd never get anything built in this region as subway. It would take forever. I mean c'mon $2.5 billion for just a couple of kms of subway to Highway 7? That's insane! Now picture 31 kms of the Crosstown Line (plus more were it extended to Kingston Rd) at $300 million/km per current trends. By constrast light rail's only $40 million/km. Only in Toronto must the costs be this exorbitantly high.
The biggest issue with Transit City is in its mixed-use operation. Z-intersections along the way also pose problems. This is why it'd be optimal to have the Crosstown Line run along an elevated guideway beyond the center tunnel, at least through Etobicoke. Since the East York-Scarborough side of the line will encounter even more closely spaced signaled cross-intersections, it may be wise to consider above-grade through here as well.
But semiexclusive ROW for the Crosstown LRT would guarantee it a somewhat fast operation in parts (25-30kmph). If some of the minor stops were to be taken out, it'd go even faster. As a subway line it's too expensive. We'd never get anything built in this region as subway. It would take forever. I mean c'mon $2.5 billion for just a couple of kms of subway to Highway 7? That's insane! Now picture 31 kms of the Crosstown Line (plus more were it extended to Kingston Rd) at $300 million/km per current trends. By constrast light rail's only $40 million/km. Only in Toronto must the costs be this exorbitantly high.
The biggest issue with Transit City is in its mixed-use operation. Z-intersections along the way also pose problems. This is why it'd be optimal to have the Crosstown Line run along an elevated guideway beyond the center tunnel, at least through Etobicoke. Since the East York-Scarborough side of the line will encounter even more closely spaced signaled cross-intersections, it may be wise to consider above-grade through here as well.
kettal
Banned
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scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
You're the one who went straight for a dictionary definition that doesn't apply to Toronto. Subways are grade-separated, not at the mercy of cars, and not even always underground. Calling something a subway when it obviously is not won't make the line more rapid and useful.
I didn't say build a subway on Eglinton, I said build a grade-separated line, which could be quick and cheap since Eglinton is lined by grass and parking lots for 90% of its length outside of where the tunnel would be. A grade-separated LRT would work (though we might as well just build a subway in that case) and would yield actual travel improvements noticed by real people, not just internet arguers and pedants. Using the Richview corridor or elevating stretches or running in shallow trenches - or a combination - would drastically lower the pricetag compared to, say, the YUS extensions, probably by half.
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unimaginative2
Senior Member
In the Toronto context, a subway is a rapid transit system that is completely grade-separated, using the technology of the YUS, Bloor-Danforth, and Sheppard lines. Anything else is simply a semantic argument.
It's not only Toronto, but it is a select group of cities that appear to have costs that are way out of line when compared to other cities. London and New York also fit in that category, though they certainly have to deal with constraints that Toronto (let alone Richmond Hill) doesn't have. I'd also note that subway costs apparently increased dramatically as soon as the TTC started to want to justify LRT over subways.
I agree that complete grade separation might not be necessary on Eglinton. A well-operated LRT, with an underground section in the middle might work quite well. It makes no sense to operate in the middle of the street, though, especially west of Black Creek where an enormous right-of-way is already available. The LRT should run in a separate ROW with railway style crossings. At no point should an LRV be stuck behind a red light. For part of the eastern section, it's a little more challenging. I'd like to see it designed similarly to Calgary, with arms coming down to block left turners when the LRV is approaching.
It's not only Toronto, but it is a select group of cities that appear to have costs that are way out of line when compared to other cities. London and New York also fit in that category, though they certainly have to deal with constraints that Toronto (let alone Richmond Hill) doesn't have. I'd also note that subway costs apparently increased dramatically as soon as the TTC started to want to justify LRT over subways.
I agree that complete grade separation might not be necessary on Eglinton. A well-operated LRT, with an underground section in the middle might work quite well. It makes no sense to operate in the middle of the street, though, especially west of Black Creek where an enormous right-of-way is already available. The LRT should run in a separate ROW with railway style crossings. At no point should an LRV be stuck behind a red light. For part of the eastern section, it's a little more challenging. I'd like to see it designed similarly to Calgary, with arms coming down to block left turners when the LRV is approaching.
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kettal
Banned
So Montreal's bouncy metro machine wouldn't count then.
Prometheus The Supremo
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wilson ave. under the 401 near bathurst st. is also a subway.
when talking about public transit, most people use the term subway as a euphemism for HRT.
when talking about public transit, most people use the term subway as a euphemism for HRT.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
It's in another city, so it's totally irrelevent to the Toronto context.
kettal
Banned
Then I say we ought to declare every bus a subway in the Toronto context. That way Montreal will never surpass us as the largest subway