Monorail for Toronto

[CodeMonkey]

This is basically a working proof-of-concept proposal. Yes, they're clearly angling to get larger projects in the future, but I think that SmartTrack isn't one of them. One only needs to look at the timeline for this project and the timeline for GO RER/SmartTrack, and one would see that they will be under construction (at least for a brief period) at the same time.

Seeing that we haven't been able to follow timelines for transit planning for a number of years, I doubt that SmartTrack or GO RER will be completed on time or before the next political distribution in two years time.

Could this be presented as an alternative to an HSR proposal? Absolutely. Could this be presented as an alternative technology for inner city or airport circulators? Absolutely.

Has to be for an HSR since maglevs are more suited for HSR. I'm just curious who is interested if it warrants an public test track? All HSR proposals haven't left the political dream world and into any real plan.

 

[gweed123]

Seeing that we haven't been able to follow timelines for transit planning for a number of years, I doubt that SmartTrack or GO RER will be completed on time or before the next political distribution in two years time.

Well the latest plans have the test segment running in early 2018. It certainly won't be completed by the time the next election rolls around, but hopefully enough wheels will be in motion that it will be very difficult to stop.

Has to be for an HSR since maglevs are more suited for HSR. I'm just curious who is interested if it warrants an public test track? All HSR proposals haven't left the political dream world and into any real plan.

And that's exactly why it's a good market to target. If you can present a workable alternative before important decisions have already been made, you can sway those decisions.

 

[CodeMonkey]

And that's exactly why it's a good market to target. If you can present a workable alternative before important decisions have already been made, you can sway those decisions.

Found this over on Reddit; turns out that we weren't the first place they where planning to build a test track, according to a blog post on the magnovate site, they where planning to build a 1km test track on the University of Alberta land and a smaller test site in San Jose, California. The post is dated September 2013 and and the site was last updated in 2014. I dunno if they built the test track or not, but I have a feeling they didn't.

 

[gweed123]

Found this over on Reddit; turns out that we weren't the first place they where planning to build a test track, according to a blog post on the magnovate site, they where planning to build a 1km test track on the University of Alberta land and a smaller test site in San Jose, California. The post is dated September 2013 and and the site was last updated in 2014. I dunno if they built the test track or not, but I have a feeling they didn't.

Maybe they felt it would be more worthwhile to build a test track which could later actually be used in some kind of revenue service?

 

[CodeMonkey]

Maybe they felt it would be more worthwhile to build a test track which could later actually be used in some kind of revenue service?

Its kind of an interesting concept, reading into more, from what I understand its an RER and HSR services all roll into one. So its Smart Track, GO RER than can also take you to Montreal all with one rail car and maglev design.

WANs, LANS, and Demand-Based Packet Switching

A Magline network may have one or more wide area networks (WAN) to connect distant stations and local area networks (LAN) for last mile and intra-city travel. A vehicle might travel at high speed between cities on a WAN and then switch seamlessly to a LAN to reach a local station. Networks of Mobility Hubs have switching advantages analogous to the Internet.

Mobility Hubs also serve as transfer points to facilitate convenient connections to other transit modes as well. For example, a passenger might coordinate the reservation, payment and even sharing of a rental car using a cell phone-based application for pick-up on arrival at a mobility hub. Large numbers of passengers traveling between distant cities at high speeds can connect seamlessly to urban networks to go the last mile within their destination city.

Source/Image Credit: Magnovate

 

[Duck]

When I was looking into the history of the Zoo's original "monorail" from Bendix-Dashveyor; the system itself was proof of concept to sell the province the technology of choice for GO-Urban/GO-ALRT project back in the day. I wonder if this is in part design to influence the technology of choice for Smart Track?

Erp, sorry - I think you've got things a bit confused here...

The Bendix-Dashveyor system that went to the zoo was premiered at Transpo '72. A couple of big contracts came out of that expo, including the Toronto Zoo's system, Boeing's PRT system (which went to Morgantown), and Vought's AirTrans (DFW Airport). It has nothing to do with GO-URBAN (Krauss-Maffei maglev) or GO-ALRT.

This proposal (for the zoo, from Magnovate) is totally separate and has nothing to do with SmartTrack.

 

[44 North]

Especially when that experimentation comes at no immediate cost to you and/or the taxpayer. If this thing does well, I could potentially see a similar application for a whole bunch of "circulator" type systems, at least initially. To scale it up to full-blown rapid or intercity transit would still be a big step. The other Toronto application I'm thinking is Pearson, to eventually replace the Link if it ever needs to be extended.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the consortium considered the Link train as an option. If this Zoo maglev actually came to fruition and proved to be of value, a replacement/extension of the Link would IMO be the next logical place for such a thing.

And it's definitely interesting considering how this is like history repeating itself. The Prov's ICTS/ALRT program was also supposed to be a revolutionary and efficient transport system - with the Mk1 performing the local service function and its similar GO-ALRT cousin operating as a regional commuter service. Not certain, but I believe they were intended to share trackage for at least some sections. Although GO-ALRT died and ICTS never quite took off, the ideas and technology behind it are sound.

 

[Duck]

To be fair, ICTS didn't take off in Toronto, but around the world it's at least as successful as VAL, if not more so. The market share of AGT-type systems is pretty evenly split, with ICTS and its successive Bombardier-developed variants having their fair share.

 

[CodeMonkey]

The Bendix-Dashveyor system that went to the zoo was premiered at Transpo '72. A couple of big contracts came out of that expo, including the Toronto Zoo's system, Boeing's PRT system (which went to Morgantown), and Vought's AirTrans (DFW Airport). It has nothing to do with GO-URBAN (Krauss-Maffei maglev) or GO-ALRT.

That when it was just Dashveyor. Bedix bought the rights to the technology and tried to sell it afterwards, hence the name Bendix-Dashveyor, but legally I found them to go under just Bedix before it was taken over by Honeywell in 1983. Bedix is still around as a subsidiary, but any mention of its AGT past is hard to come by. Most of it I had to piece together from various of sources and that's where it gets funky. Some places I read that they did make a bid for GO-URBAN, but lost to Krauss-Maffei, later to make a pitch to the then unnamed regional rapid transit system that would become GO-ALRT around late 1974, early 1975, but by 1975 the province decided to go with an home grown approach around this time, thus becoming what when then know as UTDC. The part that I did leave out was that Bedix agreed to cover all the costs of building the system for the Toronto Zoo as a demonstration to sell to the province and around the world, but I never was able to verify it.

Speaking of Transpo '72, someone was kind enough to scan in images of the Dashveyor prototype, I won't embed the images here, since there too big, but the here's the link of them for anyone curious.

This proposal (for the zoo, from Magnovate) is totally separate and has nothing to do with SmartTrack.

The sad part is, I know your right; but not for the reasons because their "totally separate" plans, since we've changed technology choices before after years of planning. But the fact that SmartTrack rolling stock will be based off of London's Crossrail rolling stock, which itself is a Bombardier Transport made product and Magnovate isn't.

 

[nfitz]

But the fact that SmartTrack rolling stock will be based off of London's Crossrail rolling stock ...

Oh, where does that fact come from? I didn't think they'd tendered anything yet.

 

[CodeMonkey]

Oh, where does that fact come from? I didn't think they'd tendered anything yet.

I'm still mystified what rolling stock they'll be using, but I came across a post from a December 2014 post by Steve Munro who quoted the SmartTrack plan referring to what it would or might look like. They might have changed it since he posted it, but I'll take Steve's post as authoritative on the issue until we actually see the trains roll in.

Here is the quote, that Steve quoted from the report:

"The rolling stock, a new high speed electric train which looks and feels very much like the new subway cars on the TTC, will be assembled in Ontario, built tested and delivered in a similar manner as the rolling stock for Crossrail in the UK which allows for the cost effective delivery of the rolling stock over time and the provision of new capacity as the system grows. Benefits of the new Rolling Stock are speed, comfort, flexibility and safety. They have the capacity to be lengthened as need be. Initially they will run on 5 minute intervals at peak hours but increase frequency easily and cost effectively as demand grows."

"The new trains are being designed to meet the needs of passengers Greater Toronto Area. They will travel at speeds of up to 160kmh thereby delivering fast cross town service. Critical to increased speed is the spacing between stations, which is why stations are on average more than 2.5 kms apart. They will be electric and organized by the world`s most advanced signalling system allowing the frequency of service up to every 90 seconds if demand requires. Initially frequent (less than 4 minutes between trains) service can be delivered at peak demand times, while less frequent as demand reduces."​

 

[nfitz]

Wouldn't that though be for the now eliminated Option A or B. Now that we know the service isn't going to be anywhere near that frequent.

 

[David Brake]

You may be pleased to hear that I have done a little digging about the zoo maglev train and should have a story up about it tomorrow (with a link through to this thread!) Might be my favourite story to date...

 

[jcam]

May I can close off the SmartTrack tangent here. Pretty sure the SmartTrack rolling stock question was settled with the new GO RER preliminary business case as MD mentioned over there:

New nearly 200 page GO RER business case document released.

There is provisions to incrementally do this during GO RER to extend the assistive-platforms eventually to full platforms, with features that allow unassisted boarding for the disabled. Not full height 48-inch, but the current assisitive platforms extended to full platforms with features permitting unattended all-door wheelchair boarding.

The goal is basically the trainsets would be compatible with present low platforms and the current assistive platforms -- but stations (infills, and incremental upgrades) can have a full-length unmanned assistive-height platform rather than a one-door assistive platform.

Zurich provides a template where GO can cheaply slowly migrate to high(er) platforms. Also noteworthy is Utah's FrontRunner has level boarding with Bombardier BiLevels.

While not compatible with UPX or HSR platform height, this would be relatively incremental-friendly -- cheap because it doesn't have to be done right away -- and new infill stations only serviced by the EMUs can be full assistive-height.

Crossrail appear to be 48" height, not equivalent to the accessibility height.

My vote on monorail - count me as one supporting this as the next LINK as well.

 

[gweed123]

If this is a success, it will certainly be interesting to see where else comes out of the woodwork asking for that type of system. As mentioned in another thread (I think the Via thread), Niagara Falls may be looking for something to connect the hotel/falls area with the GO station for when anything close to AD2W GO service comes to Niagara. I would expect that, at least on weekends, the modal shift from the GTHA would shift by a fair bit towards arriving by transit.

My two preferred options for that would either be a heritage streetcar line (think F Market/Embarcadero is San Francisco), or a Maglev based on the zoo model. Either way, it would be a unique system that would kinda be an attraction in its own right.