Monorail for Toronto

[EnviroTO]

I'm surprised that they stopped there. With a monorail station at Union Station they should increase the number of attractions. Maybe a celebrity wax museum in the middle of the Great Hall.

 

[Marko]

We've already destroyed large portions of the past in the name of urban renewal, do we need a monorail buzzing by Union station or the flat iron building to destroy the last bits of the charm left in old Toronto?

I don't see why it would have to pass the Flat Iron building, and it's probable that 'monorail' is being used as a catch-all phrase here when something like 'elevated train' is probably what they have in mind and could probably be made to run the same trains as other new LRT in the works. Why is it OK to propose elevated rail along Eglinton but not along the corridor between the rail tracks and Lakeshore?

This is a bustling city with over 6 million people in the area and over 10 million tourists a year. "Charm" is in St. Jacobs.

 

[nfitz]

I don't see why it would have to pass the Flat Iron building...

And yet that's where Ford's plans are showing it ... at least that was what was published in the Star.

Not that it will ever be built ... how long would the EA take? Start now, it might be done by late 2013 - assuming that the Ontario government doesn't do anything to delay it. Then you'd have to do a detailed design to secure funding.

This is the big problem with this proposal ... it's supposed to be a plan to speed up development, but by reopening a can of worms, it will delay some development by half-a-decade.

 

[Solid Snake]

Monorail and mega-mall plan will only take five or six years: Doug Ford

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/0...n-will-only-take-five-or-six-years-doug-ford/

It has taken eight years to plan and develop parts of the lakeside neighbourhood known as East Bayfront, but city councillor Doug Ford says it won’t take that long to convert the comparably gigantic port lands into Toronto’s next waterfront gem.

Mr. Ford says his vision for waterfront revitalization, which includes a private monorail from Union Station, a sports complex in the Hearn generating station, a mega mall, a luxury hotel and a giant Ferris wheel, can be complete in five or six years.

“We have people who are interested in the monorail system, we have people from all over the world who are interested in going out for RFP [request for proposals] on the mall, and the ferris wheel. The Ferris wheel is just a cash cow,” said Mr. Ford, who has been eyeing ways for the city to cash in on prime waterfront real estate that is under-used.

Toronto’s city manager is recommending that the city seize control of planning for the port lands, property that rests in the hands of the tripartite agency Waterfront Toronto. The city owns about 170 hectares of the port lands, which Mr. Ford “roughly” values at $2- to $4-million per hectare.

His idea is to sell the land to the private sector, and have the proceeds pay for infrastructure.

Councillor Paula Fletcher, a Ford critic, neither endorsed, nor attacked the councillor’s vision, except to say that the days of “back room” planning should be over.

“Everybody has their ideas, and Councillor Ford has his ideas. They need to be tested in a public engagement process,” said Ms. Fletcher.

Councillor Michael Thompson, a Ford ally, said he is open to the monorail idea, thinks Mr. Ford is “on the mark” with a signature attraction such as a Ferris wheel, and “fully support the idea of a mall.”

[video=youtube;IzaMs5iaX7w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzaMs5iaX7w[/video]

 

[gweed123]

It's stupid proposals like this that undermine the legitimacy of monorails.

 

[Marko]

And yet that's where Ford's plans are showing it ... at least that was what was published in the Star.

I've tried to find these plans but have found none online - got a link?

To my knowledge, "Ford's plans" have not been released and since the Star is more or less completely opposed to anything the Ford's do, I wouldn't be suprised if any renderings shown are theirs, not the ones to be released next week. Though as I asked above - I'd rather see what you're talking about as I could be wrong.

 

[leopetr]

I don't understand the monorail proposal.

It's not a proposal. It's a story to cover-up the actual plan, which is to sell off land in the portlands at firesale prices so they can avoid raising property taxes for another year. It's a plan to squander long term assets in order to buy short-term votes. There's never going to be a monorail.

 

[nfitz]

I've tried to find these plans but have found none online - got a link?

The only link I've got is page GTA-1 of yesterday's Star. I left it on the dining room table.

 

[Marko]

The only link I've got is page GTA-1 of yesterday's Star. I left it on the dining room table.

Again - since Doug Ford wouldn't even talk to the Star - I doubt it was an accurate render and more of a scare job by the paper. That there are no images to be found online sort of supports that, because if they were leaked renders then they would be repeated all over the place.

That said - if you read through some of the details of the discussion - even other councillors and WT people aren't opposing this as frantically as the public.

From the Star:

The company’s current board is composed entirely of senior city bureaucrats. Under the proposal, the board would have two councillors, five citizen appointees and two bureaucrats.

Sounds to me like the new board would actually be a more democratic, publicly representative group.

“The existing governance structure has been in place for 10 years and has not produced a viable funding plan for the port lands,” he wrote.

“It appears that Waterfront Toronto is not in a position to coordinate a comprehensive revitalization program for the port lands that would allow for significant development within the next ten years, at a minimum.”

So if the governance put in place has no means to accomplish anything for at least 10 years, why not let them see their existing projects through and put a group in place who can make something happen? Why is that automatically bad?

But left-leaning councillor Paula Fletcher, whose ward contains part of the site, said she was willing to consider Pennachetti’s recommendations. The cost of flood protection, she said, has not been adequately analyzed.

“The issue has to do with affordability. Often there are plans in the port lands that aren’t affordable,” Fletcher said. “Other flood protection plans may be just as expensive. But we have not done the analysis. That’s really what we need to do. We need to do our due diligence. And if this report allows due diligence, then that’s a good thing.”

If Paula Fletcher concedes that the previous plans were unaffordable and is willing to at least consider new ideas and further due diligence, shouldn't we all take a deep breath and wait to see what the process reveals?

She said the agency’s work has “flowed from the direction government has given us.” And she noted that “there’s been a lot of work done,” including the completion of a lengthy public consultation process and the $19 million environmental assessment currently being studied by the province.
...
“If there’s a change of direction, and a change of approach, and the three governments want to do that, then Waterfront Toronto takes its direction from the three governments,” she said.

It sounds like even WT is willing to wait and see. It's not liek the $19 environmental assessment gets thrown in the garbage as it is likely going to be one of the first layers of supporting documents to build from.

That so little of the $1.5 billion in funding has gone to the lower port lands more or less proves that they simply don't have room on their plate to do anything with it for quite some time. If there's a willingness to accelerate things by splitting responsibilities over a larger number of people, with private resources to help finance it, don't we want to try to make something happen with these lands in this decade instead of 15 or 20 years (or more) down the road? Why wait?

 

[gweed123]

Again - since Doug Ford wouldn't even talk to the Star - I doubt it was an accurate render and more of a scare job by the paper. That there are no images to be found online sort of supports that, because if they were leaked renders then they would be repeated all over the place.

If Doug would actually release the plans that made "everyone's jaws drop", the Star wouldn't have had to create their own graphic. But alas, he hasn't done that.

Sounds to me like the new board would actually be a more democratic, publicly representative group.

As opposed to this? http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/about_us/governance/board_of_directors_bios

Pretty hard to get more publicly representative than that.

So if the governance put in place has no means to accomplish anything for at least 10 years, why not let them see their existing projects through and put a group in place who can make something happen? Why is that automatically bad?

Because it will mean another 8-10 years of nothing happening while they plan. All it does is create unnecessary delays.

 

[Bogtrotter]

Aren't monorails outdated, where on this planet is it a viable form of mass transit? Go to Detroit and take a look at theirs- it's a real beauty, looks like a mini elevated turnpike cutting through the downtown.

I'm also baffled why anyone would think that a large ferris wheel would be a major attraction in Toronto. The London eye is essentially just a slow moving observation platform; it was built as an alternative to traditional sightseeing towers. In my opinion any large ferris wheel would just compete with the CN tower for visitors, and probably would have minimal added value to attracting new visitors to the city. I'm not against a major attraction on the waterfront, a serious aquarium would be good for instance, but a ferris wheel doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Marko]

If Doug would actually release the plans that made "everyone's jaws drop", the Star wouldn't have had to create their own graphic. But alas, he hasn't done that.

Agreed - the sequence of information being released is not right. It doesn't mean making a fake render for people to comment on is OK as it only serves to make the problem worse.

As opposed to this? http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/about_us/governance/board_of_directors_bios

Pretty hard to get more publicly representative than that.

I don't disagree and perhaps worded my reply poorly. The current board clearly has their hands full and has put the portlands on the backburner, so we're stuck with their decision to put things off at least 10 or 20 years - which I don't think is representative of what to populace actually wants. Given the choice, Torontonians would choose to put people in place who have it as their priority to make things happen as opposed to leaving it wait until they're all long gone from the positions they hold.

Because it will mean another 8-10 years of nothing happening while they plan. All it does is create unnecessary delays.

Maybe, maybe not. If it's been confirmed that the existing 'plan' means nothing will happen for at least a decade, it doesn't mean that something different adds another decade to that. They admit that it hasn't been and won't be a priority since they have other plans to execute first. If they were given the direction and means to do the portlands first, do you still think it would take 8-10 years or more, or would we already be seeing things happening?

 

[Paleo]

I don't see why it would have to pass the Flat Iron building, and it's probable that 'monorail' is being used as a catch-all phrase here when something like 'elevated train' is probably what they have in mind and could probably be made to run the same trains as other new LRT in the works. Why is it OK to propose elevated rail along Eglinton but not along the corridor between the rail tracks and Lakeshore?

This is a bustling city with over 6 million people in the area and over 10 million tourists a year. "Charm" is in St. Jacobs.

If it doesn't run along Front, what's it going to connect to? Are you going to thread the thing through the condos on the waterfront and have a long walk to the useful things closer to the downtown like Union or MTCC? That's just stupid.

 

[nfitz]

If it doesn't run along Front, what's it going to connect to? Are you going to thread the thing through the condos on the waterfront and have a long walk to the useful things closer to the downtown like Union or MTCC? That's just stupid.

Well there's all that wasted park land along The Esplanade ...

 

[gweed123]

I don't disagree and perhaps worded my reply poorly. The current board clearly has their hands full and has put the portlands on the backburner, so we're stuck with their decision to put things off at least 10 or 20 years - which I don't think is representative of what to populace actually wants. Given the choice, Torontonians would choose to put people in place who have it as their priority to make things happen as opposed to leaving it wait until they're all long gone from the positions they hold.

Given their preference, Torontonians would say that they want the Waterfront done tomorrow. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. The issue isn't that Waterfront Toronto has their hands full, the issue is that they don't have the funding to do it all at once. Remember, part of the foundation of this plan was the 2008 Olympic bid. If that bid were won, the money would have flowed as quickly as they needed it. That's not the case now, they need to build with whatever they can get.

Maybe, maybe not. If it's been confirmed that the existing 'plan' means nothing will happen for at least a decade, it doesn't mean that something different adds another decade to that. They admit that it hasn't been and won't be a priority since they have other plans to execute first. If they were given the direction and means to do the portlands first, do you still think it would take 8-10 years or more, or would we already be seeing things happening?

But there isn't any money to do the Portlands, that's the issue. All the funding is tied up in the West Donlands and the East Bayfront. I'm sure Waterfront Toronto would be happy to start building in the Portlands a year from now if they could get the funding secured for it. But until that funding comes, it's on the backburner.