Miller Derangement Syndrome

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Glen:

Low cost housing, not government supported, is as easily available outside Toronto as inside.

Really? And how did you come to such a conclusion? And as easily available equates to as large a stock, which makes all the difference?

Are you trying to make a bigger case for unequal funding?

Actually yes I am. Services should be funded where there is the greatest need. Nowhere in Ontario is the need for transit funding greater.

No cherry picking, have a look for yourself.

First Chart:

http://www.gta905health.com/files/So...ces-Graphs.pdf

No offense, but are you even familiar with the structure of Local Health Integration Networks (LHINs) in Ontario? These regionalized health bodies doesn't even fall along municipal boundaries. TC LHIN isn't City of Toronto - it's only the core area; significant areas of the city (covering what, 1/2 of the municipal population) actually falls under Mississauga Halton, Central West, Central and Central East LHIN. In addition, you should note on page 6 of the PDF that TC LHIN has the lowest funding level for long-term care - which happens to be the 2nd biggest funding item (after hospitals) covering what, 10% of the LHIN budget. The rest are relatively minor - for example, community support services, CHCs, etc. is what, 1-2% of the budget. Plus CCAC does NOT only serve seniors - a ton of their work is post-acute care. That's on top of the reality that numbers on per capita basis is often a poor indicator of health service needs (and expenditure) considering the role of other mediating factors (e.g. income/socioeconomic status - which is one of the biggest determinants of health service use).

Second Chart - rehash of the first.

Third PwC report:

and I quote, footnote 8

Toronto and Northern Ontario were excluded from the Ontario average and other Ontario regions average calculations because of their unique situations: Toronto includes numerous referral hospitals (providing a specific type of highly specialized care) that other regions do not and the North regions face a unique situation due to issues of lack of economies of scale.

And context - 70% of LHIN funding goes to hospitals.

Plus - the data for other categories makes comparison between GTA/905 and other regions NOT intra-GTA comparisons.

Fourth link - rehash of the third.

Besides, in the context of this particular debate - what does a provincial funded jurisdiction has anything to do with the assertion that this represents an increased transfer to City of Toronto (and or David Miller), which doesn't even touch this funding? Seriously, I really have no further interest in debating this issue with you, given you are too lazy to chew the data up yourself and just feel that sprinkling these reports around and twisting the message somehow makes your case. It doesn't. End of discussion. Quite frankly, you are bit of a one-track pony of the sort that prowls various newspaper discussion forums anyways, which makes me even less inclined to take you seriously.

AoD

 

[Glen]

Glen:
Really? And how did you come to such a conclusion? And as easily available equates to as large a stock, which makes all the difference?

You could check some sites online to verify, like I did previously.

Actually yes I am. Services should be funded where there is the greatest need. Nowhere in Ontario is the need for transit funding greater.

Then go start a thread about it, because we are not talking about transit funding here.

No offense, but are you even familiar with the structure of Local Health Integration Networks (LHINs) in Ontario? These regionalized health bodies doesn't even fall along municipal boundaries. TC LHIN isn't City of Toronto - it's only the core area; significant areas of the city (covering what, 1/2 of the municipal population) actually falls under Mississauga Halton, Central West, Central and Central East LHIN. In addition, you should note on page 6 of the PDF that TC LHIN has the lowest funding level for long-term care - which happens to be the 2nd biggest funding item (after hospitals) covering what, 10% of the LHIN budget. The rest are relatively minor - for example, community support services, CHCs, etc. is what, 1-2% of the budget. Plus CCAC does NOT only serve seniors - a ton of their work is post-acute care. That's on top of the reality that numbers on per capita basis is often a poor indicator of health service needs (and expenditure) considering the role of other mediating factors (e.g. income/socioeconomic status - which is one of the biggest determinants of health service use).

Yes I am aware of the LHIN boundaries. That is not the issue. For the expenditures that the 905 municiplaties are referring to there is an overlap. A LHIN might refer a client to a CCAC, which do align with municipal boundaries, for care. In other cases the cities/regions provide support themselves. CCAC's themselves get funding allocated based on the 1996 National Population Health Survey, which would not account for the growth differentials in population since. I know first hand of the disparities for a number of services listed.

Besides, in the context of this particular debate - what does a provincial funded jurisdiction has anything to do with the assertion that this represents an increased transfer to City of Toronto (and or David Miller), which doesn't even touch this funding?

Spill over!

For someone who frequently accuses others of missing the relationships, I am surprised (actually I am not), that you ignore this. When someone waiting for services like welfare, ESL classes, speech and language help, mental health and addiction issues waits an inordinate amount of time, there becomes an associated cost to that. Now go back to the regional CCACs which provide these programs. Municipalities also have pay for portions of the programs themselves. On top of that there is GTA pooling which has only recently been addressed.

For a more detailed analysis of the impact and cost look here for the example on York.

if services cannot be accessed close to home people are forced to leave York Region, which, especially for vulnerable people who need the support of their family and community, can be very stressful. Families and individuals find social services in Toronto they can't get here and yet York Region sent $78.8 million of its property tax dollars to Toronto for their social services in 2003. York Region is caught in a vicious circle – it cannot meet the needs of its own rapidly growing population but it is required to send money to the city-centre where many of its own residents flee when they can't find help at home.

In the past 25 years York Region has been transformed from a largely rural to suburban municipality and now is facing the challenges of becoming an urban centre. Regional and local area municipal councils must provide leadership to one of the fastest growing census divisions in Canada, where 69% of the residents are clustered in three communities (Markham, Vaughan and RichmondHill) and 49% of it’s residents work within the regional boundaries. Like an urban environment, York Region is culturally and economically diverse. Like all large urban centres, York Region began operating its own public transit system (YRT) in 2001, budgeting $48.6 million gross ($29.3 net) in 2003 for its operation.

York Region has always been a significant planner, provider and funder of social services and in 1998, as a result of Local Services Realignment (LSR), the Region was given even greater funding responsibilities in social assistance, children’s services and social housing. It took some time for the impact of this change to be fully realized, but by 2002 the Regional budget for social services had increased by $12.3 million due to reduced provincial funding and expanded service levels required to keep pace with growth.

Along with LSR, a system of sharing the cost of social services and social
housing across the GTA, called pooling, was introduced. Since 1998 the
Region has budgeted a total of over $515 million for GTA pooling costs. In
theory, pooling would equalize the cost and balance a perceived attraction to
the city centre by York Region residents when times get tough. But the
utilization statistics show a different reality. In 2003, 36.8% or 1,876 residents on York Region’s centralized wait list for social housing were from Toronto while 3.27% or approximately 1,800 of Toronto’s wait list applicants were from York Region. Over $241 million in pooling for social housing has been collected from York Region over the past six years but the cost/benefit ratio is unfairly weighted in Toronto’s favour.

Seriously, I really have no further interest in debating this issue with you, given you are too lazy to chew the data up yourself and just feel that sprinkling these reports around and twisting the message somehow makes your case. It doesn't. End of discussion. Quite frankly, you are bit of a one-track pony of the sort that prowls various newspaper discussion forums anyways, which makes me even less inclined to take you seriously.

AoD

Seriously the only thing you contribute here is a defence of the status quo.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Just to correct more lack of knowledge in the area:

A LHIN might refer a client to a CCAC, which do align with municipal boundaries, for care.

First of all, the LHIN is the overaching regional health authority - they don't do referring.

While we do not directly provide services, our mandate is to plan, integrate and fund health care services.

http://www.lhins.on.ca/aboutlhin.aspx?ekmensel=e2f22c9a_72_184_btnlink

And no, the boundaries of CCAC service area is exactly the same as that of the LHINs
http://www.ccac-ont.ca/Locator.aspx?EnterpriseID=15&LanguageID=1&MenuID=70

If you can't even get these facts straight, really, why bother.

AoD

 

[Glen]

Just to correct more lack of knowledge in the area:

First of all, the LHIN is the overaching regional health authority - they don't do referring.


http://www.lhins.on.ca/aboutlhin.aspx?ekmensel=e2f22c9a_72_184_btnlink

The hospitals or agencies that are in the LHIN do the referring.

And no, the boundaries of CCAC service area is exactly the same as that of the LHINs
http://www.ccac-ont.ca/Locator.aspx?EnterpriseID=15&LanguageID=1&MenuID=70

You are right. The boundaries do align. My thoughts were on some services, which while the CCAC may arrange, they don't provide (pay for) themselves.

from the CCAC site...

Connectors to home care, long-term care destinations, and other services in your community.

Just what do you think the 905 municipalities are complaining about? Did you read the concerns over LSR and GTA pooling?

 

[lordmandeep]

Miller is a jackass and a bastard and a douche bag...

Now we have settle that the old fashion way...


lets now settle this the civilized way.


He is a decent guy surrounded by people who are disillusion. He needs to need to move to the centre and support real proper ideas instead of pointless ones. Major problem with Miller is he always is looking for the ideal and ignoring reality.

 

[unimaginative2]

Actually, in many ways I'd say Miller is a little too practical and unwilling to rock the boat. He's done some useful things, and he's been bold on a couple issues (the all-LRT transit plan) but he really hasn't been as ambitious as a lot of us had hoped. One of the things that really motivated me when I supported him back in 2003 was the design review panel. He got the right to impose it in the City of Toronto Act, but we haven't heard anything about it since. He came into office with his Clean and Beautiful City plan, and while it has done a fantastic job with plantings along certain streets (University Avenue is gorgeous in the summer), it really could be vastly more ambitious in a city that, while wonderful and dynamic and exciting, isn't exactly the world's most attractive.

 

[UD2]

Actually, in many ways I'd say Miller is a little too practical and unwilling to rock the boat. He's done some useful things, and he's been bold on a couple issues (the all-LRT transit plan) but he really hasn't been as ambitious as a lot of us had hoped. One of the things that really motivated me when I supported him back in 2003 was the design review panel. He got the right to impose it in the City of Toronto Act, but we haven't heard anything about it since. He came into office with his Clean and Beautiful City plan, and while it has done a fantastic job with plantings along certain streets (University Avenue is gorgeous in the summer), it really could be vastly more ambitious in a city that, while wonderful and dynamic and exciting, isn't exactly the world's most attractive.

No money buddy. Can't be ambitious without money. City coffers are robbed by downloads.

 

[unimaginative2]

That's my whole point. The design review panel is exactly the kind of thing that he could do even when money is short.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I don't think the Design Review Panel Pilot has run its' course yet.

Oh speaking of which, the minutes of which now includes renderings and more info!

http://www.toronto.ca/planning/pdf/design_review/designreview_minutes_apr09.pdf

AoD

 

[UD2]

That's my whole point. The design review panel is exactly the kind of thing that he could do even when money is short.

He's doing it. And there has been a whole range of urban design guideline that are recently released.

ex. the tall buildings guidline.

It's somewhere on the Toronto Urban Planning website. You should go read it. It's an eye opener on why recently constructed city look the way it does.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

UD:

The guidelines have relatively little to do with a design review panel with the power to vet proposals.

AoD

 

[unimaginative2]

^Exactly. C'mon, he's halfway through his second term. I think it's about time that the panel get implemented. There's no reason for this delay.