GenerationW
Senior Member
Seems to me they've washed their hands of Sheppard for the immediate future, and they'll let a future government deal with it in the next decade.
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Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)
- Thread starter Le Gique
- Start date
MrsNesbitt
Active Member
The SMLRT could be rigged into costing approximately the same as the SELRT and will have close to the same ridership as the ECLRT. That's just one example, but I really don't foresee a Sheppard-Downsview connection being of as much use as something on that order of magnitude, good as it may look on a map.
If we're talking closing the loop between the two arms of Line 1, then to me the far superior solution is extending the FWLRT from Finch West station (Spadina line) to Finch station (Yonge line).
44 North
Senior Member
Does anyone know much the SELRT was supposed to increase peak SB ridership on Yonge? Reason I ask is that perhaps one reason the SELRT has essentially been canceled is to help get Yonge North started. Metrolinx has already stated that a "relief" solution means many things. Perhaps in this case it's preemptively reducing the number of future riders on Yonge that would've occurred had the LRT been completed?
superman
Active Member
This delay could be a good thing. It allows the city to re-study Sheppard and determine if the LRT is still justified east of Victoria Park given SmartTrack at Agincourt GO and Line 2 at Sheppard-McCowan. I do think, regardless, that they should work to extend the subway east to Consumers or Victoria Park given the development/offices there and given that this underground link would have to be done anyway if they followed the LRT plan.
I think the Sheppard West link makes a lot of sense. It gives people who live north of Eglinton station and on the Sheppard line a quick 2-stop rapid transit access (vs 11 stops on the proposed Finch LRT connection to Yonge) to the Spadina lines with reasonable distances to York U and Yorkdale.
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MrsNesbitt
Active Member
I agree that Consumers would make a far more natural terminus for the Sheppard subway than Don Mills. Whether that one-stop addition alone is worth the almost-billion it would take to tunnel under the 404...I'm not sure. But in an ideal world Consumers would definitely get service.
We also have to be careful in considering spending those billions on extending Sheppard west to Downsview. Yes it gives a quick link between Yonge and University, but we need some serious numbers to justify that enough riders would switch to Spadina to significantly relieve Yonge before spending billions on that particular project. The costs in particular of crossing the river between Senlac and Bathurst would be significant.
44 North
Senior Member
Although I don't have the numbers to prove it, I think extending Sheppard to Downsview would actually exacerbate Yonge's capacity issues. Or at the very least do absolutely nothing to relieve it.
MrsNesbitt
Active Member
I certainly don't see anything beyond minimal improvement as remotely feasible. Given that billions of dollars will be spent in Scarborough (after billions of hours of howling about it) to eliminate a single transfer soon, there's strong evidence for people preferring single-seat rides whenever/wherever possible. I don't see the likelihood of many riders from north of Sheppard on Yonge making two transfers to head down Spadina instead.
lead82
Senior Member
This is just another delay. At first we started with 4 LRT lines. Then 3 with Scarborough now being planned as a subway extension. Finch is being re-affirmed but until tendering and construction begins in earnest I am not hopeful it will be built. Tendering was supposed to happen last year, now it's later this year, then they will delay it again until the next election.
For all intensive purposes, the Sheppard LRT is dead. Which, to be honest is probably a good decision. Extending Line 2 to Scarborough will drain a lot of funds that either the city nor the province would like to admin. It's a waste of money but everyone is committed to it and I don't think there is any stopping the Line 2 extension. There isn't much Sheppard LRT support politically. It's a hot potato. Ideally, we should have built an LRT from Yonge, but now switching technology at Don Mills would create the same problem we are aiming to fix in Scarborough, and that is an arbitrary technology switch. The right solution would be to either extend the subway further east to meet up with Line 2 at McCowan, or convert the Sheppard Line to LRT and built the extension east as LRT. I foresee that Sheppard may be extended as a subway eventually. However, for the next 5 years, we wont see much action on it. Scarborough gets what it elects. They didn't support the LRT, so they will have to live with the bus routes to serve north Scarborough for the next decade at least.
For all intensive purposes, the Sheppard LRT is dead. Which, to be honest is probably a good decision. Extending Line 2 to Scarborough will drain a lot of funds that either the city nor the province would like to admin. It's a waste of money but everyone is committed to it and I don't think there is any stopping the Line 2 extension. There isn't much Sheppard LRT support politically. It's a hot potato. Ideally, we should have built an LRT from Yonge, but now switching technology at Don Mills would create the same problem we are aiming to fix in Scarborough, and that is an arbitrary technology switch. The right solution would be to either extend the subway further east to meet up with Line 2 at McCowan, or convert the Sheppard Line to LRT and built the extension east as LRT. I foresee that Sheppard may be extended as a subway eventually. However, for the next 5 years, we wont see much action on it. Scarborough gets what it elects. They didn't support the LRT, so they will have to live with the bus routes to serve north Scarborough for the next decade at least.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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Mrs Nesbitt always great to see, but I disagree. I think you and Adjei should know that subway will come. They have to push for it now. The Bloor Danforth subway is now the south Scarborough Subway.
The problem is you can do the same with Finch. But I digress, we are revisiting the subway, and we will have a big debate.
MrsNesbitt
Active Member
Ah Den, it's great to be here as always. But I don't think the subway is an inevitability. The Scarborough Liberal caucus and some rather noisy councillors can continue to push for, and they will continue to push for it, but unless the city can find the money (lol) or the province is willing to spend a serious few billions, it has little traction still.
What I find odd about touting any Sheppard project as serving northern Scarborough is that Sheppard really isn't that far north in the east end. Speaking in arterials, you still have Finch, McNicoll, and Steeles—a good third of Scarborough's width at the western edge of the city, and almost a half at the east, not to mention a sizeable chunk of its population—to its north, with zero higher-order transit. If we want to get talking about realllllllyyyyy northern Scarborough, I've always been fond of the idea of a Steeles LRT myself.
BurlOak
Senior Member
That is not a major valley like the Bloor Street Viaduct. I would peg that cost at about $10,000/m2 x 4.5m wide x 2 (one track on either side of existing bridge) = $90M /km + cost of track, power, signalling, etc.
Elevated transit, whether above an existing road or a shallow to moderate valley, will cost about $120M/km to $150M/km. The bridge over the West Don River would actually be the cheapest part of this line.
lead82
Senior Member
A Steeles LRT would be fantastic. The demand is there as the 53/60 routes are very busy between York U and Pacific Mall. It would go all across the top of the city, but being a border arterial, it wont happen. Too many players to align and it would be debated for ages.
Talking about Sheppard though, I think the sad thing is that initially the province announced $17B in transit, funding 4 LRTs back in 2009. Then they chopped that to $12B by cutting the eastern portion of Finch at Keele, and Sheppard at Morningside. Now Sheppard is being delayed to post election time-period meaning it's up for debate/cancellation. From lofty announcements in 2009, fast forward to 2020/21 and the only thing we will likely get is the Eglinton LRT.
If it wasn't for Ford, Sheppard LRT would be operating today, Scarborough LRT would be under construction, and we would be opening the Finch LRT this year. Now we have none of those 3 lines under-construction. So much for progress...
Talking about Sheppard though, I think the sad thing is that initially the province announced $17B in transit, funding 4 LRTs back in 2009. Then they chopped that to $12B by cutting the eastern portion of Finch at Keele, and Sheppard at Morningside. Now Sheppard is being delayed to post election time-period meaning it's up for debate/cancellation. From lofty announcements in 2009, fast forward to 2020/21 and the only thing we will likely get is the Eglinton LRT.
If it wasn't for Ford, Sheppard LRT would be operating today, Scarborough LRT would be under construction, and we would be opening the Finch LRT this year. Now we have none of those 3 lines under-construction. So much for progress...
nfitz
Superstar
The Sheppard East LRT budget was about $1 billion, though that didn't include the yard (which was part of the Scarborough RT replacement budget. So about $1.2 billion available. So roughly 4 km of subway. Hmm, might just be able to do it, if you just build one station at Bathurst, and another at Downsview.
Though I doubt the ridership justifies it in comparison to other projects. I'd think the Sheppard East LRT ridership would be higher entering Don Mills station.
Adjei
Senior Member
Aren't the Feds also contributing $300 million for Sheppard?
nfitz
Superstar
Something like that (as part of the original $billion). Though when the committed to it, the province was promising a 2013 completion. Then 2014. And so on.
If they are now really aiming for 2025, I'm not sure how long we expect the Feds to keep promising the money for.