Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[jcam]

A) The existing Sheppard line should probably be converted into an LRT. Perhaps when Eglinton is completed people will come to their sense and not freak out at the concept of converting a Subway to an underground LRT.

The platform height doesn't allow for a tunnel conversion. I worked on the design of the TBMs for the TYSSE and Crosstown...the tunnel diameters are within maybe a foot of one another, but the LRT tunnel is BIGGER. The combination of the catenary rigging above the LRT and the low floor mean that the platforms on Line 4 would be at least a couple feet too high to convert to LRT. Digging out those center platforms wouldn't be impossible, but you'd also have to lengthen the escalators and drop the elevators (or surround the existing bases each with ramps). Worth it? Discuss.....

You can see the relative platform differences in this cross-section of Kennedy station (Eglinton Crosstown on the left, Line 2 on the right, and Line 3 on the above right):

This is the reason people suggest newer SRT trains on Line 4....you could much more easily retrofit the existing stations and then run it elevated across Sheppard to the east.

 

[Rainforest]

A) The existing Sheppard line should probably be converted into an LRT. Perhaps when Eglinton is completed people will come to their sense and not freak out at the concept of converting a Subway to an underground LRT.

I wish people come to their sense and stop proposing such conversion. It will be very costly, disruptive, and bring no benefit at all to 50% of the Sheppard subway users (those who come from the connecting buses rather than from LRT).

Sheppard LRT is fine by itself; it will be faster than the bus, help the existing riders, and support higher density between Don Mills and McCowan. However, same-platform connection between the LRT and the subway is good enough.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

But.. The transfer. It's, like, 4 steps

 

[Rainforest]

But.. The transfer. It's, like, 4 steps

Yes, I realize that the transfer is a bit of a nuisance.

But, imagine that you live on Sheppard, you got your brand new Sheppard LRT line up and running, and you transfer to / from Sheppard subway every day.

Three months later, TTC decides to close Sheppard subway for conversion to LRT. For the next 3 months, or perhaps 6 months, you have to endure crowded shuttle buses between Don Mills and Yonge, or find another route altogether. Will that make you happy, even if you know that your commute will become slightly better at the end?

 

[sixrings]

three months later, ttc decides to close sheppard subway for conversion to lrt. For the next 3 months, or perhaps 6 months, you have to endure crowded shuttle buses between don mills and yonge, or find another route altogether. Will that make you happy, even if you know that your commute will become slightly better at the end?

yes

 

[salsa]

I wish people come to their sense and stop proposing such conversion. It will be very costly, disruptive, and bring no benefit at all to 50% of the Sheppard subway users (those who come from the connecting buses rather than from LRT).

Sheppard LRT is fine by itself; it will be faster than the bus, help the existing riders, and support higher density between Don Mills and McCowan. However, same-platform connection between the LRT and the subway is good enough.

I think this conversion idea gets brought up for the purpose of both eliminating the transfer at Don Mills, and extending the LRT to Downsview. The latter would be quite expensive to do as a subway, which would also have very few stops and too low ridership to justify.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yes, I realize that the transfer is a bit of a nuisance.

But, imagine that you live on Sheppard, you got your brand new Sheppard LRT line up and running, and you transfer to / from Sheppard subway every day.

Three months later, TTC decides to close Sheppard subway for conversion to LRT. For the next 3 months, or perhaps 6 months, you have to endure crowded shuttle buses between Don Mills and Yonge, or find another route altogether. Will that make you happy, even if you know that your commute will become slightly better at the end?

No. I'd be outraged that the TTC was wasting so much money on this. That money could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Rainforest]

I think this conversion idea gets brought up for the purpose of both eliminating the transfer at Don Mills, and extending the LRT to Downsview. The latter would be quite expensive to do as a subway, which would also have very few stops and too low ridership to justify.

Fair enough; but the extension to Downsview as LRT won't be cheap, either. The tunnel has to be extended by about 1.5 km (to West Don), since that section of Sheppard is too narrow for surface LRT.

Either way, I would think that extension to Downsview, in any form, is not the top priority.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

JayBee, why the cowardice? If you have something to say to me you could simply direct it at me, we are already on the internet you could literally quote me with two clicks. I guess that wouldn't give you the same thrills you get when you're catty on message board, ahh well..

Wasn't directed at you, or I'd have quoted you. It's the recurring reason on this board for cancelling SELRT and extending the Sheppard line. STC must be served because it's a node, and there is an assumption that transfers have a significant impact on ridership, which simply isn't true.
STC is never going develop enough to justify extending the Sheppard subway there. This report sums up the development potential and like most people knew, LRT is best for Scarborough, not subways.

 

[nfitz]

Fair enough; but the extension to Downsview as LRT won't be cheap, either. The tunnel has to be extended by about 1.5 km (to West Don), since that section of Sheppard is too narrow for surface LRT.

Which section? The tunnel already extends almost a kilometre west of Yonge Street. If they started a portal at the west end, it wouldn't daylight until about Senlac. I don't see why you wouldn't simply put the portal just west of Senlac, and not need any more tunnel.

 

[aquateam]

No. I'd be outraged that the TTC was wasting so much money on this. That money could be better spent elsewhere.

+1

That's the main thing. Why would you spend the tremendous amount of money and effort to rebuild the Sheppard subway as an LRT when there is little benefit and there are many much worthier projects. There is a huge SOGR backlog and unfunded proposals that would bring new transit to parts of toronto.

Personally, I think a good "solution" to the additional transfer comes from completing proposed transit projects. If you have a DRL to Eglinton, and run a Don Mills LRT north from it, you could have the Sheppard LRT interline with the Don Mills LRT (i.e. Sheppard LRT goes south at Don Mills instead of terminating at Don Mills station). Wham, there you have a one-transfer trip from all of Sheppard East to Downtown. And building the Don Mills LRT would actually add new transit capacity instead of putting the money into "downgrading" existing transit.

 

[Canadian Chocho]

Wasn't directed at you, or I'd have quoted you. It's the recurring reason on this board for cancelling SELRT and extending the Sheppard line. STC must be served because it's a node, and there is an assumption that transfers have a significant impact on ridership, which simply isn't true.
STC is never going develop enough to justify extending the Sheppard subway there. This report sums up the development potential and like most people knew, LRT is best for Scarborough, not subways.

Never was implying that. Was actually implying converting the existing Sheppard Subway to an LRT (which I now know is not as easy as I may have thought thanks to jcam's informative post) to match the current LRT plans which I fully support.

 

[jaybe]

I attended a transit planning seminar hosted by Jennifer Keesmat about 18 months ago. She had an internationally renowned consultant present on the topic (apologies but his name escapes me). He spoke about the need to create grids and direct lines across the city with the premise that the fastest way between two points is a direct line and that grids reduce the need for multiple transfers. He commented how it made no sense that many TTC buses stop at a subway station for breaks, and in many cases, force riders to change buses if they plan to continue their route. This logic is the rationale for converting the Sheppard Subway to an LRT. Effective transit does not force riders to change modes of transit if they are travelling in the same direction as it increases travel times. It is unfortunate, as noted above, that such a conversion would be costly and not a good transit investment.

I think your idea of routing the SELRT southbound on Don Mills road is excellent and should be seriously considered. That said, my concern is it may have the same long term impact as the Sheppard stubway and force riders to change modes of transit multiple times to make a trip to the core.

 

[ehlow]

I attended a transit planning seminar hosted by Jennifer Keesmat about 18 months ago. She had an internationally renowned consultant present on the topic (apologies but his name escapes me). He spoke about the need to create grids and direct lines across the city with the premise that the fastest way between two points is a direct line and that grids reduce the need for multiple transfers. He commented how it made no sense that many TTC buses stop at a subway station for breaks, and in many cases, force riders to change buses if they plan to continue their route. This logic is the rationale for converting the Sheppard Subway to an LRT. Effective transit does not force riders to change modes of transit if they are travelling in the same direction as it increases travel times. It is unfortunate, as noted above, that such a conversion would be costly and not a good transit investment.

I think your idea of routing the SELRT southbound on Don Mills road is excellent and should be seriously considered. That said, my concern is it may have the same long term impact as the Sheppard stubway and force riders to change modes of transit multiple times to make a trip to the core.

Jarrett Walker, human transit. The video of the Toronto talk is online if you Google it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I attended a transit planning seminar hosted by Jennifer Keesmat about 18 months ago. She had an internationally renowned consultant present on the topic (apologies but his name escapes me). He spoke about the need to create grids and direct lines across the city with the premise that the fastest way between two points is a direct line and that grids reduce the need for multiple transfers. He commented how it made no sense that many TTC buses stop at a subway station for breaks, and in many cases, force riders to change buses if they plan to continue their route. This logic is the rationale for converting the Sheppard Subway to an LRT. Effective transit does not force riders to change modes of transit if they are travelling in the same direction as it increases travel times. It is unfortunate, as noted above, that such a conversion would be costly and not a good transit investment.

I think your idea of routing the SELRT southbound on Don Mills road is excellent and should be seriously considered. That said, my concern is it may have the same long term impact as the Sheppard stubway and force riders to change modes of transit multiple times to make a trip to the core.

One of the issues is route reliability. The longer a route, the harder it is to have busses maintain a reliable schedule. It's better to split a route in half and have a small subset of users transfer, than have one enormous route with horrible reliability.

With the TTC's new route management techniques, perhaps they'll be able to merge the split routes in to one.