Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[kEiThZ]

Keithz:
Actually, it's exactly the opposite of your point. You are advocating that city-wide resources be put into a specific line, with benefits that does not justify the expenditure, at a time when there are clearly bottlenecks within the existing system that requires an extraordinary amount of resources to address. To say "Scarborough got shafted" under this environment is practicing what you are loath to preach - building transit on the basis of political expediency - which just so happens to be in a way that you benefit from. BTW, considering the somewhat questionable planning motivation and outcomes (real and potential) for both the original Sheppard and Vaughan extension - you are arguing we should build transit using the exact same rationale?

I'm arguing for consistency and injecting some understanding of the anger those residents have. Disagree with it all you want. They have a reason for being upset. You can't keep building stuff west of VP and then cry poor every time when it comes to Scaroborough. I was in elemementary school when the promised to extend the SRT to Malvern. And now it looks like it won't happen in my lifetime. You don't think decisions like that make people upset?

And what's this about city-wide resources being put into a specific line? Isn't that what Finch West is? Isn't that what TYSSE is? Isn't that what WWLRT is? Isn't that what the DRL would be? Are you seriously suggesting that investment in a particular region be limited only to funds raised in that region?

Well, as they say - fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. And no offense, just how does a subway on Sheppard does anything for riders on Finch, Lawrence or Steeles? Are you suggesting that somehow a subway under the same alignment will somehow do something for them that LRT would utterly fail to do, considering the distance those E-W arterials are from Sheppard?

AoD

1) I'm not advocating for Ford to be re-elected. But I'm sure you can see how seething anger and dissatisfaction can be harnessed to bring about that outcome.

2) A subway on Sheppard most certainly helps a rider on Finch or Lawrence. There's a reason there's a Finch bus from Don Mills station. The subway is reasonably fast enough that travelling north or south from another corridor to connect to it is worthwhile. Do the math and tell me how much time you'd save going from Neilson and Finch to Yonge if you have to take the Neilson Bus, the Sheppard LRT and the Sheppard subway vs. a Finch Bus to Agincourt station and Sheppard subway to Yonge.

 

[Palma]

You know with all this arguing about what type of transit and where, it may all be for nothing. The provincial budget is coming down Mar 21st and the finance minister reveals billions of dollars in infrastructure projects will be delayed or cancelled. The big infrastructure projects i see is transit so if that is the case then its a waiting game of which transit project will be cancelled. The only acceptable cancellation for me is the Spadina extension especially to Vaughan. Any other projects i hope Torontonians will be up in arms. Its a good thing Council has already voted on Eglinton and Finch and will have that vote on Mar 21 on what to do with Sheppard. This way the Liberals cannot blame council and say since Toronto cannot makeup their minds about what to do with transit city blah, blah, blah.....

 

[JoeParez]

You know with all this arguing about what type of transit and where, it may all be for nothing. The provincial budget is coming down Mar 21st and the finance minister reveals billions of dollars in infrastructure projects will be delayed or cancelled. The big infrastructure projects i see is transit so if that is the case then its a waiting game of which transit project will be cancelled. The only acceptable cancellation for me is the Spadina extension especially to Vaughan. Any other projects i hope Torontonians will be up in arms. Its a good thing Council has already voted on Eglinton and Finch and will have that vote on Mar 21 on what to do with Sheppard. This way the Liberals cannot blame council and say since Toronto cannot makeup their minds about what to do with transit city blah, blah, blah.....

Spadina won't be cancelled.

 

[johnwood]

building LRT along sheppard instead of an extended subway would be stupid. Traveling along a 4 stop subway line and then transferring to a 4-5 stop LRT is a waste of time and would create a bottle neck. the cost to the economy, tax payers, would be more if the LRT was built

 

[rbt]

There's a reason there's a Finch bus from Don Mills station. The subway is reasonably fast enough that travelling north or south from another corridor to connect to it is worthwhile.

It's not popular. The 139 runs every 20 minutes (Ford recently reduced frequencies due to poor performance) during peak time periods only. It carries less than 1/10th of the total Finch riders through Finch and Vic Park. Some of these riders will be going to Fairview mall and others may be taking a connecting bus. I've personally used the 139 once a way to connect to the Don Mills southbound bus on a rainy day.

In fact, some might argue the very poor ridership on that route is exactly why some capital should be directed toward upgrading part of Finch East to BRT or better instead of using everything to extend Sheppard to Vic Park.

 

[Tulse]

the cost to the economy, tax payers, would be more if the LRT was built

Can you provide links to the data you are using for that claim?

 

[Rainforest]

It's not popular. The 139 runs every 20 minutes (Ford recently reduced frequencies due to poor performance) during peak time periods only. It carries less than 1/10th of the total Finch riders through Finch and Vic Park. Some of these riders will be going to Fairview mall and others may be taking a connecting bus. I've personally used the 139 once a way to connect to the Don Mills southbound bus on a rainy day.

In fact, some might argue the very poor ridership on that route is exactly why some capital should be directed toward upgrading part of Finch East to BRT or better instead of using everything to extend Sheppard to Vic Park.

But a detour via Sheppard subway would be more attractive for riders if the subway was longer. I made some travel time estimates:

Trip from Finch / Don Mills to downtown via Sheppard subway: express bus 6 min, transfer 5 min, subway to Yonge 9 min, another transfer 5 min. Total: 25 min.

Trip from Finch / Don Mills to downtown via Finch: express bus 18 min, transfer 5 min, subway to Sheppard 3 min (south of Sheppard is the common route for both options). Total: 26 min.

The advantage of subway is minor in this case, and is not worth the hassle of additional transfer.

But if the subway was longer, and a branch of Finch bus ran to a station at Sheppard/Warden:

Trip from Finch / Warden to downtown via Sheppard subway: express bus 6 min, transfer 5 min, subway to Yonge 15 min, another transfer 5 min. Total: 31 min.

Trip from Finch / Warden to downtown via Finch: express bus 30 min, transfer 5 min, subway to Sheppard 3 min (south of Sheppard is the common route for both options). Total: 38 min.

In that case, the advantage of diverting to subway is noticeable: 7 min. Moreover, the Sheppard subway would make a substantial part of the total trip duration, and getting a seat on that part of the route instead of being on a crowded bus would be appealing on its own.

 

[yin_yang]

Can you provide links to the data you are using for that claim?

yea, i would say that people get home five minutes slower, but nothing that crazy..

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Cross posted to other related threads - the report:

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-45908.pdf

AoD

 

[rbt]

But a detour via Sheppard subway would be more attractive for riders if the subway was longer. I made some travel time estimates:

How many Billions does Sheppard Subway need to be before you get a full busload ever 5 minutes instead of a partial load every 20 minutes?

How many millions for a BRT (dedicated lanes, a mix of local and express service) on Finch East would win them back again? Why not just build a Finch BRT?


I would also like to see someone put a value on a lane of traffic. The total lifetime income of a person is about $2Million (40k/year * 47 years working, todays dollars). The amount of lifetimes being spent solely to reduce a bit of hassel at intersections seems excessive.

 

[Voltz]

Ford is calling for an referendum on Sheppard East, I doubt he would be calling for one if he thinks council is supportive of his plan.

 

[Palma]

Having stops every 1500m is good if you are located near one of the stops. i did not see any shelter provided for transit users like the ones here such as along St. Clair - they even have seating and barriers.

 

[Palma]

Ford is calling for an referendum on Sheppard East, I doubt he would be calling for one if he thinks council is supportive of his plan.

I heard Josh Matlow say that council will support the panel recommendation. But who knows what will happen that day. And if a referendum was held (city-wide on what to do with Sheppard) and the right question was asked (and not one Ford would ask) and the results showed LRT wins what would Ford do then? Say that downtowners skewed the results and only those around Sheppard should have participated in the referendum? If thats the case then just those people around sheppard and in Scarborough should have to pay for it though higher taxes. I certainly do not approve of what Ford said and that was that any tolls (or taxes, whatever he said) should go to fund the sheppard subway. I doubt most people in Toronto would approve of that

 

[andrewpmk]

Reading the report:

- The small number of people who commute to North York surprises me. There are always traffic jams on 401 and clearly most of these people are not going downtown. However only fairly small numbers of people are commuting to North York Centre, Consumers Rd, York University, Don Mills, DVP/Eglinton and Yonge/Eglinton.
- There are a lot of people who commute from Scarborough to Markham. Clearly big improvements in bus service are needed, the bus service connecting Scarborough to Markham is very poor. The north south TTC and YRT routes like YRT 8 and 90, TTC 224, 86, 17, 102, 129 need higher frequencies north of Steeles. YRT Route 8 should be extended to Scarborough Centre. The Stouffville GO train line should be upgraded with higher frequencies.
- Lowering commercial taxes would help encourage employers to move from the 404/407 area in Markham/Richmond Hill to North York Centre and the Consumers Rd area. I think that the reason that commercial growth in North York has stagnated is because of the big increase in taxes caused by amalgamation, which has caused businesses to flee to York Region.
- Transit City and Ford's subway plan would have both provided little benefit to most people who commute within Scarborough e.g. the 33% who commute between points within Scarborough north of the 401. Since light rail is very expensive (though cheaper than subways) it is too expensive to put it on routes like Finch East, Steeles East, Victoria Park, Warden, McCowan North, etc. Bus lanes and articulated buses are far more cost effective so they can be put everywhere.

 

[Rainforest]

How many Billions does Sheppard Subway need to be before you get a full busload ever 5 minutes instead of a partial load every 20 minutes?

How many millions for a BRT (dedicated lanes, a mix of local and express service) on Finch East would win them back again? Why not just build a Finch BRT?

Finch East BRT is a valid alternative; but not necessarily the best possible option.

Option 1: Finch East BRT between Yonge and Warden, 9.5 km x $40 M/km = $380 M. Plus, Sheppard East LRT for $1.1 B; total cost $1.48 billion.

Option 2: extend the subway to Warden: 3.5 km x $450 M/km = $1.58 billion. The cost of Option 2 is not much higher.

But with Option 1, we still have a swarm of buses on Finch East BRT (frequency under 2 min) running all the way to Yonge and serving mostly long-haul demand.

With Option 2, half of Finch East buses turn south at Warden and run 2 km to the new subway terminus, instead of 9.5 km to Yonge. The total number of required buses is reduced substantially; and the local service on Finch between Yonge and Warden is still pretty decent at 4 min headways instead of 2 min.

Of course, one caveat of Option 2 is that we need all of $1.58 B committed before the construction starts, while only $1.1 B are on the table and nobody is ready for new taxes.

I would also like to see someone put a value on a lane of traffic. The total lifetime income of a person is about $2Million (40k/year * 47 years working, todays dollars). The amount of lifetimes being spent solely to reduce a bit of hassel at intersections seems excessive.

The number of traffic lanes does not change either way. Finch East is mostly 2 lanes in each direction, and will retain 2 general traffic lanes in each direction even if it gets widened to include BRT or LRT.