Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[micheal_can]

There is no one solution to fix the problems the TTC riders face.

The busiest routes are Subways and Streetcars. Mind you, a few bus routes are even higher.

A true world city has various levels of transit, costing various amounts, and running various frequencies.

Toronto does have that. They have GO, Subways, Streetcars and buses.

Once GO RER is implemented, I wonder which bus routes will drop.

Something that GO and TTC need to do is to either eliminate fares between them, or have more fare zones in Toronto. Having that additional fare would see transit drop slightly, as people look for alternatives to their ride. The additional fares could also help with paying for the future upgrades and new lines.

In all major cities, they are building subways. They are not building more LRT and they cannot match the ridership that a subway can. I would not doubt the EC LRT will show that. What then? We spent billions of dollars on something that will become overburdened long before it can be replaced.

Move 2020 has not happened. Transit city has not happened. Every politician promises what the people will listen to. Too bad they cannot deliver what they promise.

 

[Steve X]

Rouge Hill has the Lakeshore GO line which will become RER. It's already all day/two way operation. It should be utilized more by feeding more buses to it. Once the SmartTrack is up, areas along that line will have semi-decent rapid transit to the city centre.

It's North East Scarborough that's screwed. The next party to be in power after next election will decide the fate of Scarborough I suspect. That's when design will reach 30%, prices will skyrocket to $7B for one stop and PC party wins power campaigning to cancel it.

The fact is RER is not for everyone. If ML keeps their current base fare, everyone would be spending $5-7 with RER. Rouge Hill GO is useless for people not going downtown or west end. I'm pretty sure that's includes a lot of locals. If Crosstown East doesn't get built, those people would be stuck on buses for the next how many decade. Not everyone can afford a $12 round trip via GO either (assuming fare integration), especially for all those folks on welfare raising children. Kids aren't free either.




Bus ridership dropping is a good thing. It's the best that the subway raises while buses drop. Additional bus require to carry the same ridership means an additional cost. Buses definitely don't run with equal loads in both directions. Low floor buses are already screwing the TTC over as it cost less to move everyone on more roomier high floor buses. All these tech and electronic systems add to that cost too.

All we got is a piece of Transit City, it's better than what we got for the "2011 Network" plan. The heck that Eglinton and TYSSE was actually part of Network 2011 too.

 

[TransitBart]

Why not connect the west side to Downsview and the east side to STC as a subway? The problem right now is it basically goes no where and serves no purpose. Built out, it would serve a great purpose.

With what money?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

This is a rational transit choice. The response to it here reflects the issues with transit in the area generally. First you decide what you want. Then you decide how to pay for it. Building to live within some envelope is a half-job that won't improve anyone's commute. The worst possible outcome would be "something we call can live with" that is neither rapid, nor complete. @michael_can has made a good suggestion that looks impossible, but is actually what the city needs.

 

[Voltz]

This is a rational transit choice. The response to it here reflects the issues with transit in the area generally. First you decide what you want. Then you decide how to pay for it. Building to live within some envelope is a half-job that won't improve anyone's commute. The worst possible outcome would be "something we call can live with" that is neither rapid, nor complete. @michael_can has made a good suggestion that looks impossible, but is actually what the city needs.

No, first it should be decided what is a rational, economical, fiscally responsible, and appropriate for the expected ridership. Not just what people want. The Sheppard Subway meets none of this criteria.

The worst possible outcome is not "something we can live with", it's continuing to build nothing because of the rational and reasonable plans getting cancelled in favour of subways that are completely unjustified, and never get built.

 

[micheal_can]

This is a rational transit choice. The response to it here reflects the issues with transit in the area generally. First you decide what you want. Then you decide how to pay for it. Building to live within some envelope is a half-job that won't improve anyone's commute. The worst possible outcome would be "something we call can live with" that is neither rapid, nor complete. @michael_can has made a good suggestion that looks impossible, but is actually what the city needs.

No, first it should be decided what is a rational, economical, fiscally responsible, and appropriate for the expected ridership. Not just what people want. The Sheppard Subway meets none of this criteria.

The worst possible outcome is not "something we can live with", it's continuing to build nothing because of the rational and reasonable plans getting cancelled in favour of subways that are completely unjustified, and never get built.

Right now, the Sheppard Subway does not. That is a true statement. However, having it meet an LRT to continue on it's desired route also does - not - make - sense.

 

[Voltz]

Right now, the Sheppard Subway does not. That is a true statement. However, having it meet an LRT to continue on it's desired route also does - not - make - sense.

Why not? Right now it meets bus routes, that are crowded, getting stuck in increasingly worse traffic congestion and have the longest transfer in the system. The Subway extension is not ever going to happen, no matter how good of a case is made for it, there are many billions worth of higher priority transit that needs to be built first, including the DRL.

 

[nfitz]

However, having it meet an LRT to continue on it's desired route also does - not - make - sense.

Makes more sense than meeting a bus stuck in traffic, or building more even more under-used subway. Given where it's got to, taking it under the 404 to Victoria Park might make sense. But any further is crazy.

 

[micheal_can]

Makes more sense than meeting a bus stuck in traffic, or building more even more under-used subway. Given where it's got to, taking it under the 404 to Victoria Park might make sense. But any further is crazy.

Eventually, it needs to go under the 401... So extending it between there makes sense.

 

[BurlOak]

Connect Sheppard to Spadina and interline both north and south. 1 stop ride from Fairview to Vaughan or Downtown. Then also bring the DRL up to Fairview.

Then is makes sense to NOT extend the subway east, as riders would be split between heading south and west.

Otherwise, convert to SkyTrain (LRT won't fit in tunnels), elevate before DVP (eliminate tunneling costs), and continue to STC (and Centennial).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Right now, the Sheppard Subway does not. That is a true statement. However, having it meet an LRT to continue on it's desired route also does - not - make - sense.

Why not? Right now it meets bus routes, that are crowded, getting stuck in increasingly worse traffic congestion and have the longest transfer in the system. The Subway extension is not ever going to happen, no matter how good of a case is made for it, there are many billions worth of higher priority transit that needs to be built first, including the DRL.

Makes more sense than meeting a bus stuck in traffic, or building more even more under-used subway. Given where it's got to, taking it under the 404 to Victoria Park might make sense. But any further is crazy.

We said Scarborough would never get the subway and looked what happened. Never underestimate how hungry politicians are for votes. Plus, ontarians are babies about LRT. LRT makes sense because it covers all of Sheppard Road and not just to McCowan, but people will not see it like that. This is thing is back on the table now, that ship left the port when Tort flipped on the subway.

Eventually, it needs to go under the 401... So extending it between there makes sense.

This is what makes it so expensive. So any subway has to be above ground.

 

[nfitz]

Eventually, it needs to go under the 401... So extending it between there makes sense.

Not necessarily - that plan was formulated when there was no plan to extend the Danforth Subway to Sheppard. Might make more sense - in the unlikely event that anyone ever extends past Victoria Park - to just transfer to Line 2 at McCowan for the very few that want to do that. Recall how very poor the forecast Sheppard ridership was east of Kennedy, once it dropped below 401.

Connect Sheppard to Spadina and interline both north and south.

South maybe. North? Over one of a lower-demand piece of the network? You don't interline the low-demand areas.

Otherwise, convert to SkyTrain (LRT won't fit in tunnels) ...

You'll still need grade separation though. LRT can fit in the tunnels, other than the overhead. But if you could find a vehicle that would fit, or use primove in the tunnel - which wouldn't have the snow/ice issues.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Not necessarily - that plan was formulated when there was no plan to extend the Danforth Subway to Sheppard. Might make more sense - in the unlikely event that anyone ever extends past Victoria Park - to just transfer to Line 2 at McCowan for the very few that want to do that. Recall how very poor the forecast Sheppard ridership was east of Kennedy, once it dropped below 401.

South maybe. North? Over one of a lower-demand piece of the network? You don't interline the low-demand areas.

You'll still need grade separation though. LRT can fit in the tunnels, other than the overhead. But if you could find a vehicle that would fit, or use primove in the tunnel - which wouldn't have the snow/ice issues.

This thing has supporters and government support in some places. This is ending how the Bloor Subway fiasco ended.

 

[nfitz]

This thing has supporters and government support in some places. This is ending how the Bloor Subway fiasco ended.

A one-stop express subway to Scarborough Centre?

Unlikely. For one, it will be more expensive, even with only 1 stop, being about 8.5 km long - which is over 40% longer than the 6 km extension from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre (not including tail tracks for either). Secondly the ridership will be significantly lower than the Danforth 1-stop extension. Thirdly, fool me once ...

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

A one-stop express subway to Scarborough Centre?

Unlikely. For one, it will be more expensive, even with only 1 stop, being about 8.5 km long - which is over 40% longer than the 6 km extension from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre (not including tail tracks for either). Secondly the ridership will be significantly lower than the Danforth 1-stop extension. Thirdly, fool me once ...

It's not going to be one stop. It will be built in full. Fool me once? Toronto is always the fool. I bet you thought the bloor extension would not happen.

 

[nfitz]

It's not going to be one stop. It will be built in full. Fool me once? Toronto is always the fool. I bet you thought the bloor extension would not happen.

I've always figured the Bloor extension would happen sooner or later - if only to get to a new yard in Etobicoke. But I'm not convinced the Danforth extension will happen.

And Sheppard East will never happen to Scarborough Centre - the ridership was ridiculously low east of Agincourt - and it will be even worse now that's there's already a competing subway going there, which was never planned previously.