Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[DSC]

I wouldn't think fare evasion on that route is much higher than elsewhere. Heck, looking at the crowd riding the 143 - I suspect it's lower than average (I'm referring to the business attire)

You have touching faith that people in 'business attire' are less prone to free-loading!

 

[nfitz]

You have touching faith that people in 'business attire' are less prone to free-loading!

I have less belief that those with downtown employment commuting at peak to the suburbs have the same financial need to steal $43 a month than someone who has no job.

It's not the attire that makes me think it's less likely. It's the employment.

Still, I wouldn't think that it would be that significant otherwise. Or do you agree with the post that I objected to that very few people pay the extra fare? That would be about 5-10% paying? I'd be surprised if the fare evasion rate was 10%, let alone the fare-paying rate!

I think there's also a correlation with lower crime rates and increasing age ... and the crowd on the 143 looks older than the crowd on the 501, on average.

 

[W. K. Lis]

You have touching faith that people in 'business attire' are less prone to free-loading!

The "business attire" or "Sunday best" of the Roman Empire would have been the toga. Now imagine people in togas going to and from their business on slave driven "buses".

LOL!

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Today I cam across fare inspectors at Union station when I got off the Spadina streetcar and I noticed that when they scanned my card it made a different beeping sound than when they did it with others I figured it was because I have a metropass on my card.

 

[DKsan]

You have touching faith that people in 'business attire' are less prone to free-loading!

When I worked at the TTC, the dedicated commuters of those lines definitely paid -- because they would screech into the customer service lines about people who didn't or people who didn't look like they belonged or any other tiny problem. That double fare has actually bred entitlement.

 

[ShonTron]

Good question about the premium express buses. Has the TTC figured out how to deduct a second fare on those routes yet? Now that Metropasses (and the sticker for premium routes) are gone, and tokens and tickets on their way out, what will the TTC do?

I guess a follow up question would be if the TTC figured out how to use Presto on routes still contracted to YRT.

 

[nfitz]

Good question about the premium express buses. Has the TTC figured out how to deduct a second fare on those routes yet? Now that Metropasses (and the sticker for premium routes) are gone, and tokens and tickets on their way out, what will the TTC do?

I guess a follow up question would be if the TTC figured out how to use Presto on routes still contracted to YRT.

It's Presto's job, not TTC's job, to figure out how to do it. That's pretty clear from the TTC/Metrolinx agreement on implementing Presto.

BTW, I hadn't seen a mid-route Presto check on a peak-hour 506 ... gosh in about a year. Was interesting to watch one this morning on a standing-room only car. Each and every person successfully tapped - though one woman took a couple of minutes to find her paper transfer. No evidence of the increased fare-evasion that some have predicted.

 

[amnesiajune]

I wouldn't think fare evasion on that route is much higher than elsewhere. Heck, looking at the crowd riding the 143 - I suspect it's lower than average (I'm referring to the business attire)

The problem on the "premium express" routes isn't fare evasion, it's low (and inefficient) ridership. Because of the premium fare, they don't attract many passengers (ridership today is 75% lower than before the extra fare was added), and the few who take the routes do so for long distances. As a result, they have ridiculously high per-passenger subsidies, especially on the two routes that parallel the subway. Take a look at this report: https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...orts/6_Express_Bus_Network_Study_combined.pdf

 

[nfitz]

The problem on the "premium express" routes isn't fare evasion, it's low (and inefficient) ridership. Because of the premium fare, they don't attract many passengers (ridership today is 75% lower than before the extra fare was added), and the few who take the routes do so for long distances. As a result, they have ridiculously high per-passenger subsidies, especially on the two routes that parallel the subway.

Why did you say that very few people are paying the fare premium?

The 143 always seems busy when I take it - even standing room only some days. I've certainly never gotten a double seat to myself - unless I've caught the very last run of the day and it's running very late. The service is very one-directional, and is clearly going to cost more.

 

[amnesiajune]

Why did you say that very few people are paying the fare premium?

What I mean is that very few people are taking the bus at all, and the result it that it's increased the net cost for the TTC, because ridership fell by 75%. The remaining 25% are paying a double fare, but total revenue still dropped by 50%.

The 143 always seems busy when I take it - even standing room only some days.

The 143 is the best-performing of the "premium express" buses, but it still requires the 5th-highest subsidy per passenger of any conventional TTC service (only better than the other four premium express routes) despite the extra fare. The average usage of each bus is 16.6 passengers per hour, so they're not empty but it's rare that they're standing room only.

 

[muller877]

The 143 is the best-performing of the "premium express" buses, but it still requires the 5th-highest subsidy per passenger of any conventional TTC service (only better than the other four premium express routes) despite the extra fare. The average usage of each bus is 16.6 passengers per hour, so they're not empty but it's rare that they're standing room only.

I am hoping someone will do an information access request for the month of January so we can see the total ridership by mode (and for the subway by station). Plus how many transfers for each bus and/or station. Then when we quibble about ridership we will actually have factual support versus some random study that the TTC did (which from the ridership number we no know will be way off).

For the premium express bus service we also have to consider the alternative. Being potentially 2 or 3 separate rides to get to your destination. So the comparative fare has to be divided a bunch of ways.

 

[nfitz]

What I mean is that very few people are taking the bus at all, and the result it that it's increased the net cost for the TTC, because ridership fell by 75%

You have to go back to 1990 or 1991 to see that 75% drop, when they made the fare double after a short experiment of using the regular fare. Wasn't there only 1 or maybe 2 of these routes back then? Surely that's rather irrelevant a quarter-century later.

The average usage of each bus is 16.6 passengers per hour, so they're not empty but it's rare that they're standing room only.

That's from the 143. If you look at it the schedule there are 16 peak-direction runs, and 9 runs in the opposite direction (to return the buses for a second run). Personally, I've seen those runs go past, without anyone on the bus. Does anyone use it in the counter-peak direction? If you account for that, there are 25.9 (26) riders per bus.

I've certainly observed 40 or so, though 30-35 would seem to be right on average to me. Though I only ever take it in the PM - perhaps AM runs are lighter used (certainly the streetcar is more reliable in the AM)? Hmm, interestingly, there are 9 peak-direction runs in the morning, and only 7 in the afternoon. The final one is scheduled at about 6:45 at Yonge ... and is often rather late (having got stuck trying to get back downtown to run again) ... and 15 to 20 riders is more normal on that one in my experience.

 

[amnesiajune]

For the premium express bus service we also have to consider the alternative. Being potentially 2 or 3 separate rides to get to your destination. So the comparative fare has to be divided a bunch of ways.

So what? If people really want a direct ride, they can use Uber or Lyft, which don't need a massive subsidy.

If you look at it the schedule there are 16 peak-direction runs, and 9 runs in the opposite direction (to return the buses for a second run). Personally, I've seen those runs go past, without anyone on the bus. Does anyone use it in the counter-peak direction?

Maybe not, but it costs the same amount money to get those buses back from the end of the route to the beginning regardless of whether or not they're in service. Not having any passengers half of the time is a part of what makes these express buses the TTC's most inefficient routes, and leads to them needed the largest subsidies despite having a higher fare.

 

[nfitz]

Maybe not, but it costs the same amount money to get those buses back from the end of the route to the beginning regardless of whether or not they're in service. Not having any passengers half of the time is a part of what makes these express buses the TTC's most inefficient routes, and leads to them needed the largest subsidies despite having a higher fare.

True - but given I've often (perhaps about 10-20% of my rides) had to stand on the 143 when I've taken it, I'm simply disputing your comment that it's "rare that they're standing room only". Certain peak runs often are standing room only. Other later and counter-peak runs aren't.

 

[amnesiajune]

It truly shows the lack of planning behind Presto that it isn't trivial to charge different fares for different bus routes.

It is trivial. York Region has been doing it since they adopted Presto seven years ago.