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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

DSC said:
Possibly and even understandably. What is not understandable is why they did not immediately get the PRESTO programming fixed and had to tell PRESTO users to get paper transfers. This leads me to think that re-programing this kind of simple small change into PRESTO is not easy and makes me ask, again, whether it wouldn't be cheaper to go for timed tickets. I think it is generally agreed that timed tickets would be easier to understand and offer better customer service.
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Is there any study that shows 2-hour transfers will lose the TTC money even with the extra riders? If 2-hour transfers were implemented, would the same route in the same direction be considered a "transfer" or a "new trip". Same with the same route in the opposite direction?
 
nfitz said:
However the vehicles all have GPS. I'm not sure you could do this in realtime, But you should be able to run a batch every few hours and identify all the offroute runs. Then to identify passengers that could have been on. Then check to see if they tapped near the detour route and reverse any extra charges.
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The problem with this right now is the current communications system installed on buses and streetcars can't provide all of that information. They are currently working on a new system that will allow for more direct reporting of buses to Transit Control rather then having to go through each of the yards. It will also give real time feedback from the buses at all times so they know if the AC fails on abus well it's on route or something like ta and they can take it out of service quicker then having to wait for the driver to call it in.
 
Leo_Chan said:
Is there any study that shows 2-hour transfers will lose the TTC money even with the extra riders? If 2-hour transfers were implemented, would the same route in the same direction be considered a "transfer" or a "new trip". Same with the same route in the opposite direction?
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The TTC does currently have a two hour transfer window for Preto users, but it only works within the rules of the transfer policy. Although sometimes it does make exceptions like for example if you tap in a subway station and leave at another and come back with in the window it won't charge you anew fare even if its different sation. Personally I think Transfers will become a non issue once they add in the daily and weekly caps to Presto for the TTC as once you reach the cost of daily pass it won't charge you again until the next day and the same with the weekly pass cap once you reach the cost of it you will have it for the week ending on Sunday as the TTC runs the weekly pas from Monday to Sunday.
 
I'd be curious to know what the cost of updating the system for all these edge cases is...likewise how many phone calls and refunds they have to do...and what it will be when the system is scaled up.

There is a cost to the TTC of having the current complicated transfer system...whether it be website updates, edge cases, refunds, frustration of users, frustration of visitors....

Information I'd like to know from the TTC/Presto:

- number of refunds given, number requested
- number of comments on social media or via phone calls of potential issues
- amount of money spent on refunds
- amount of hours spent by staff on refunds
- amount of time/money spent by staff implementing edge cases
- aprox number of users effected, but not calling in (ie. given known issues, how many other people should have gotten a refund)
- time between an edge case being identified and being implemented

Also:
- amount of money required to implement a 2 hour transfer on Presto - based on current stats and current technical limitations (if any?)
 
georgevicbell said:
Information I'd like to know from the TTC/Presto:

- number of refunds given, number requested
- number of comments on social media or via phone calls of potential issues
- amount of money spent on refunds
- amount of hours spent by staff on refunds
- amount of time/money spent by staff implementing edge cases
- aprox number of users effected, but not calling in (ie. given known issues, how many other people should have gotten a refund)
- time between an edge case being identified and being implemented
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I doubt they would release that information mostly for privacy reasons. Plus I fail to see what benefit it brings anyone to know that information.

georgevicbell said:
Also:
- amount of money required to implement a 2 hour transfer on Presto - based on current stats and current technical limitations (if any?)
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The TTC already has an unofficial 2 hour transfer window in place for Pretos. In all likelihood once paper tickets, tokens and cash fare go away I could see them getting rid of transfers entirely. It';s been noted that they will be port over the daily and weekly passes as cap in the system once your presto card usage on the TTC reaches the value of those two types of fares. If they do that then having transfers becomes unnecessary.
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
The TTC already has an unofficial 2 hour transfer window in place for Pretos. In all likelihood once paper tickets, tokens and cash fare go away I could see them getting rid of transfers entirely. It';s been noted that they will be port over the daily and weekly passes as cap in the system once your presto card usage on the TTC reaches the value of those two types of fares. If they do that then having transfers becomes unnecessary.
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No matter how many times you say it, you're wrong. It's set up, as much as possible, to work only under the TTC's transfer policy. And even then, it doesn't work.

I wrote about the problem here.
 
ShonTron said:
No matter how many times you say it, you're wrong. It's set up, as much as possible, to work only under the TTC's transfer policy. And even then, it doesn't work.
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What you wrote about is a simple problem - the TTC programs stations as "valid transfer points" and "invalid transfer points". If you tap on at an "invalid" one, you get charged a second fare no matter what. For some reason, Presto considers Union to be an invalid transfer point. I guess the TTC would rather have people use paper transfers than lose a bit of fare revenue at Union.
 
amnesiajune said:
What you wrote about is a simple problem - the TTC programs stations as "valid transfer points" and "invalid transfer points". If you tap on at an "invalid" one, you get charged a second fare no matter what. For some reason, Presto considers Union to be an invalid transfer point. I guess the TTC would rather have people use paper transfers than lose a bit of fare revenue at Union.
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Yes, it would seem it SHOULD BE a simple programing problem, but (as discussed at length above) it is either NOT simple to fix or PRESTO are very slow in making simple changes. If it were simple to fix (or if PRESTO made changes fast) why would the TTC (further) confuse PRESTO users by requiring paper transfers at two subways stations and from several bus routes? As has been stated on many occasions, it would seem almost fool-proof and require no ongoing program changes to move to timed transfers where the only changes would be if the length of validity was changed.
 
It appears Presto has been designed so that changes to the transfer policy can't be made on the fly, but rather requires code changes. Code changes need to go through the entire system development lifecycle, which includes all sorts of complex testing and taking the system down over the weekend to make updates in production. They probably want to avoid doing this too often and so their solution is paper transfers. It's not very good system design since the system should have been designed to allow for changes to the transfer table without having to change code.
 
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Presto just wasn't designed for these weird transfer policies. It was designed for time-based transfers, because the one transit agency that has a convoluted system refused to participate in the system's original design. It's a perfectly good system design for the transit agencies that actually took part in the design process.

Anyways, I'm not so sure of this, especially considering the TTC's painfully slow adoption of Presto in general. Premium express bus fares, for example - why is the TTC so slow on something that the other transit agencies have supported since day one? It's hard to look at Presto problems and not feel like a big issue is TTC management's bureaucracy, incompetence or unwillingness to make the new system work well.
 
amnesiajune said:
Presto just wasn't designed for these weird transfer policies. It was designed for time-based transfers, because the one transit agency that has a convoluted system refused to participate in the system's original design. It's a perfectly good system design for the transit agencies that actually took part in the design process.

Anyways, I'm not so sure of this, especially considering the TTC's painfully slow adoption of Presto in general. Premium express bus fares, for example - why is the TTC so slow on something that the other transit agencies have supported since day one? It's hard to look at Presto problems and not feel like a big issue is TTC management's bureaucracy, incompetence or unwillingness to make the new system work well.
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The simple answer is the TTC was forced to use Preto when they wanted to use ther a fare collection system that they were going to put out tenders for. It works fine on all other systems because none are as complex a the TTC. Even if they went with something other than Presto they would still have to be able to implement the TTC transfer policies. However I could see the TTC just eliminating Transfers completely once Presto is full implemented.
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
. However I could see the TTC just eliminating Transfers completely once Presto is full implemented.
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That is just silly. Unlike some other transit systems, the TTC system is built on a network philosophy with surface routes converging on subway stations etc. Transferring from one route or mode to another is a basic part of the system. (Physical, paper, transfers will certainly vanish as all transactions will be on the PRESTO card.)
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
The simple answer is the TTC was forced to use Preto when they wanted to use a fare collection system that they were going to put out tenders for.
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It was a part of the Crosstown LRT agreement. The city got a six-billion dollar transit line built entirely on the provincial government's dime when they agreed to adopt Presto. Calling that "forced" is very disingenuous - it was no more forced than the provincial government was "forced" to build that LRT.

EastYorkTTCFan said:
It works fine on all other systems because none are as complex a the TTC.
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It works fine on Go Transit, which is an extremely complicated fare system compared to the TTC. Go Transit has ninety-seven fare zones. The only thing that's complicated with the TTC is their transfer policy, and there's no good reason for the transfer system to be that complicated. I can't think of any other transit system I've been on that lets you board as many trains and buses as you want, but only in "the most efficient trip with no stopovers". The rest of the world uses either a time-based system or a system that permits one or two transfers (two transfers outside of the fare-paid area would be enough here in Toronto).

Anyways, the fact is that the TTC is struggling to do things that other transit agencies have absolutely no problem with. There's no reason why they can't set up the Premium Express fares and the YRT/MiWay fares, but they seem unable to do that, due to either incompetence or malice.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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I boarded a bus with fare paid access to subway to go downtown.
I ran my errand, then boarded the 509 to Union. Counted as transfer :-D
 
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