Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[steveintoronto]

What is it that you don't understand about "don't be rude."?

I see...so wanting to see the 'rules and tariffs' in print is "rude"?

TTC used to post it. They don't now. Why is that? You have every opportunity to address the question.

Clearly the rules aren't just a simple time-limited transfer anywhere.

"Clearly"? Then post reference.

Like this:
Time-based Transfers
512 St Clair Pilot Program
The TTC has introduced a new Time-based Transfer Pilot Program along the 512 St Clair route.

What is a time-based transfer?
A time-based transfer allows you to travel for up to two hours on the 512 St Clair route.

You can board a 512 St Clair streetcar or bus at any stop, in any direction, until the expiry time shown.

How do I use a time-based transfer?
Keep and show your time-based transfer to the operators each time your board. On routes other than 512 St Clair, the transfer is valid at the connecting route transfer points only, until the expiry time shown.
How long is a time-based transfer valid?
The time-based transfer is valid until the expiry time shown.
Where do I get a time-based transfer?
A time-based transfer is only available from a 512 St Clair operator.

 

[PinkLucy]

I suspect that the TTC doesn't post it now because they don't want to advertise that there is a "sort of" 2 hour rule in effect with Presto. I haven't been able to take advantage of it lately, but my experience shows me that if I take a streetcar to a subway station, go to my appointment or whatever, and return home via a subway station and then a streetcar, I am not charged for the second trip if it begins two hours or less after the first trip.

There are some route-specific incidents where that doesn't work, as have been discussed in this thread earlier -- in fact, it happened to me when I took a 511 and was planning to transfer to the 501, but the 501 was extremely delayed so I got back on the 511 and ended up transferring to the 504. I was charged for two trips even though only about a half hour had elapsed. You can't go back on the same route you started out on and have it count as a transfer regardless of the timing.

 

[steveintoronto]

I suspect that the TTC doesn't post it now because they don't want to advertise that there is a "sort of" 2 hour rule in effect with Presto. I haven't been able to take advantage of it lately, but my experience shows me that if I take a streetcar to a subway station, go to my appointment or whatever, and return home via a subway station and then a streetcar, I am not charged for the second trip if it begins two hours or less after the first trip.

There are some route-specific incidents where that doesn't work, as have been discussed in this thread earlier -- in fact, it happened to me when I took a 511 and was planning to transfer to the 501, but the 501 was extremely delayed so I got back on the 511 and ended up transferring to the 504. I was charged for two trips even though only about a half hour had elapsed. You can't go back on the same route you started out on and have it count as a transfer regardless of the timing.

Exactly! And your posted experience here is far from unique, quite a few others have posted same.

You can't operate an ostensibly sophisticated and modern system on 'rote understanding'. There's going to be disputes even with every 'i' dotted, and every 't' crossed, but at least the terms are in writing to reference when those inevitable disputes arise.

So as it stands, according to Fitz and Amnesia, anything goes. They can't produce anything in writing to state otherwise, and reinforce that by posting or claiming instances where there is no apparent limit.

Someone's dropped the ball on this, badly, ostensibly due to there being such a vacuum in the ability to enforce rational terms.

in fact, it happened to me when I took a 511 and was planning to transfer to the 501, but the 501 was extremely delayed so I got back on the 511 and ended up transferring to the 504.

That was my dilemma too, when I experienced an unexpected short-turn on Spadina due to (isn't it almost always?) an accident on Spadina. They were going to re-route the stranded car onto College, then down Bathurst to Queen, then Queen to Spadina back south. I was headed to see a movie at Dundas and Yonge (in retrospect, I should have taken subway, but alas) so I didn't have transfer, paid by Presto, asked inspector, he said (gist)" tap on the transfer machine before getting off"...and lo and behold: "You are beyond the 90 minutes time since paying your fare" (which was also wrong, but alas again), so I just booted it down to Dundas, made it to theatre just in time, didn't tap on Dundas car as my POP status means they'd have to check my Presto Card, and if they didn't like that, I'd see them in court.

And win.

It shouldn't have to be that way...

 

[amnesiajune]

That is one instance. That's not a reference. I've also had that experience. And I've had experiences where that didn't happen.

Do you really think that the TTC intentionally wrote a longer transfer specifically for Sheppard-Yonge station this into their Presto implementation?

 

[steveintoronto]

Errr...no. You continue to miss the point, that being *inconsistency in the absence of clear enforceability of stated policy*. I'm not surprised. Best you read back on what others have posted.

How's that "transfer to transfer to transfer...never" claim coming along there?"

 

[amnesiajune]

Presto seems to work in a very simple and predictable way: You get one transfer for your trip within 120 minutes - subway-to-surface, surface-to-surface or surface-to-subway at valid transfer points (i.e. stations where connecting routes don't go into the fare paid area). The only exception anyone has posted is transferring from the bus to the subway at Union, which for some reason still isn't considered a transfer point by the Presto system.

in fact, it happened to me when I took a 511 and was planning to transfer to the 501, but the 501 was extremely delayed so I got back on the 511 and ended up transferring to the 504. I was charged for two trips even though only about a half hour had elapsed.

Did you tap onto the second 511 streetcar and the 504? More likely than not it was the second transfer that you were charged for.'

They can't produce anything in writing to state otherwise, and reinforce that by posting or claiming instances where there is no apparent limit.

Can you produce anything stating otherwise? Nope. All you can do is point and say "that obvious pattern is just a bunch of totally random coincidences"

 

[PinkLucy]

I tapped on to both and my Presto record showed I was charged for the second 511 streetcar (I was not charged for the transfer to the 504)

 

[amnesiajune]

I tapped on to both and my Presto record showed I was charged for the second 511 streetcar (I was not charged for the transfer to the 504)

That's odd, perhaps they added support for route recognition to prevent backtracking. It was going to need to be added eventually to set the double-fare on the downtown express buses.

 

[nfitz]

I tapped on to both and my Presto record showed I was charged for the second 511 streetcar (I was not charged for the transfer to the 504)

Nothing new there. That was implemented back in January if I recall. I posted several examples on the 506 further up the thread.

 

[rbt]

As you are well aware, TTC has not published a number for the current implementation.

I doubt they will either for quite a while. If they publish how it works then they can't play with that mechanism without complaints.

 

[steveintoronto]

Presto seems to work in a very simple and predictable way:

That's odd, perhaps they added support for route recognition to prevent backtracking.

So which is it?

All you can do is point and say "that obvious pattern is just a bunch of totally random coincidences"

Not "totally random coincidences". Your interpretation of events is surreal, to say the least. It appears that there's a *lack of consistency*. Many of us have had events happen that defy the touted story, and the one on transfer time limits has disappeared completely on the TTC's website save for the St Clair car.

The only exception anyone has posted is transferring from the bus to the subway at Union, which for some reason still isn't considered a transfer point by the Presto system.

That's Shon Tron's and he even wrote an article on it for Torontoist, I believe. There's many more in this very forum string if you'd just read.

Surface-to-surface-to-surface: Never

That one's a gem...I've done it many times. So does that mean that it will happen every time for everyone?

WillTo said: ↑
If I take the bus to Eglinton Station and transfer to the subway, there is no gate because I just waltz on down to the subway platform.

But if I try to save time and exit the bus before it pulls into the bus terminal and tap on the Presto gate, does that count as a transfer?
Nope, you'll be dinged for another trip.

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#5516 Unlike + Quote Reply
You, amnesiajune and WillTo like this.

And there's one more to which you even 'liked'.

Speaking of 'inconsistency'....

 

[steveintoronto]

So who is good for their word at the TTC?

Dec 23, 2015
York Guardian
By Rahul Gupta


Users of the Presto fare card will get a few more weeks to enjoy the use of time-based transfers throughout the TTC network.

Time-based transfers allow for travel in any direction within a specific window, and the TTC has long had the fare policy in effect — but only on the 512 St. Clair West streetcar route.

Some Presto users – posting on the popular discussion site Reddit – reported they were not charged for an additional TTC fare despite tapping on at least twice within two hours. This was confirmed by TTC spokesperson Brad Ross, who said the time-based transfers will remain in effect for anyone using Presto, until a software update scheduled for Jan. 18, 2016.

“TTC transfer rules will apply after the software change,” said Ross over email Dec. 23.

With the TTC working to complete Presto card reader installations to its legacy streetcar fleet by the end of 2016 – the new Bombardier-manufactured models already come equipped with the technology – Ross said a window opened for using time-based transfers.

“We were aware that there would be two to three weeks after announcing the old streetcars have Presto where TTC transfer rules wouldn’t apply,” he said. “Nothing has changed for Presto users on the TTC. That change will occur January 18.”

Currently, TTC fare policy only allows transfers for one-way continuous travel, with no stopovers or backtracking. Despite having added the time-based transfers to the 512 line over 10 years ago, many riders had no idea the policy was in place until the TTC recently increased promotion of the service.

Although it has no plans to remove time-based transfers from St. Clair West, the TTC has also resisted expanding the policy because of an estimated $20 million hit to revenue, and no corresponding funding support from other levels of government. A 2014 staff report also found a time-based option could potentially save the TTC at least $15 million annually by reducing the improper use of existing transfers.

Ross said two per cent of TTC riders currently make use of Presto.

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-s...-a-few-extra-rides-with-time-based-transfers/

That story was quoted by Fitz some months back. Now he states otherwise. So when exactly did their policy change back again Fitz?

Here's the Reddit forum referred to in that article:
https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/43k3e0/transferring_using_presto/

 

[steveintoronto]

I win another one, just got this, albeit this went up the ranks, since I provided a witness to my actually tapping off (she was a visitor from the Netherlands, and irony of ironies, I was showing her how the Presto system works...or doesn't)(this is the Presto machine top of ramp at UPX platform, Union.) This answer is two months in coming. Perhaps the mention that it would be written-up in the Nederlands' press hit a nerve?

Dear Customer,

Thank you for your enquiry in regards to your Missed Tap-Off charge. We apologize for any confusion this may have caused.

We have reviewed your account and determined that we will provide a one-time service gesture for the difference between what you were charged and the amount you would have paid if you tapped off, taking into consideration any loyalty discounts.

Please tap your card on a PRESTO balance checker or fare device after 24 hours but within 30 days of receiving this email to complete this transaction.

If you travel between the same two GO Train stations most days, you can save time by setting a default trip. For more information on default trips, please visit www.prestocard.ca.

Sincerely,
XXXX
The PRESTO Team

A little worrying on Presto's intel-savvy though:

Be careful with this message. It contains content that's typically used to steal personal information. Learn more
Report this suspicious message
Ignore, I trust this message

I chose the latter, since it's a mailbot and unable to accept replies anyway.

 

[nfitz]

That story was quoted by Fitz some months back. Now he states otherwise. So when exactly did their policy change back again Fitz?

What are you talking about? Presto has used a combination of time-based fares and blocking multiple uses of the same route (based on automatic detection of the route) and re-entering the subway, in various formulations, since January.

This has been documented extensively on this forum.

Perhaps if you read the sum of the contributions in this forum - many before your newbie appearance, you might understand it better.

In the meantime, perhaps you can stop pulling your posts deep out of your imagination. It's tiring.

It's entirely possible to be not charged for invalid transfers, and to be charged for valid transfers, depending on various factors, such as lack of detection of tap point, wrong detection of tap point, and algorithm failures detecting what route you are on (particularly on vehicles that have just short-turned into service). When I did my comprehensive test back in August, I ended up being wrongly charged 3-4 times, and getting 4-5 free rides; though a couple of those were because both readers were out-of-service and I was only taking a short trip on 1 vehicle. Personally, I've been on Metropass since August, so it's more difficult to observe, and I only have my partner's smaller usage to examine (which mostly consists of short trips back and forth on 506).

 

[steveintoronto]

What are you talking about? Presto has used a combination of time-based fares and blocking multiple uses of the same route (based on automatic detection of the route) and re-entering the subway, in various formulations, since January.

This has been documented extensively on this forum.

Perhaps if you read the sum of the contributions in this forum - many before your newbie appearance, you might understand it better.

In the meantime, perhaps you can stop pulling your posts deep out of your imagination. It's tiring.

It's entirely possible to be not charged for invalid transfers, and to be charged for valid transfers, depending on various factors, such as lack of detection of tap point, wrong detection of tap point, and algorithm failures detecting what route you are on (particularly on vehicles that have just short-turned into service). When I did my comprehensive test back in August, I ended up being wrongly charged 3-4 times, and getting 4-5 free rides; though a couple of those were because both readers were out-of-service and I was only taking a short trip on 1 vehicle. Personally, I've been on Metropass since August, so it's more difficult to observe, and I only have my partner's smaller usage to examine (which mostly consists of short trips back and forth on 506).

[What are you talking about? Presto has used a combination of time-based fares and blocking multiple uses of the same route (based on automatic detection of the route) and re-entering the subway, in various formulations, since January.]
Well thanks for that, Fitz. I was hoping you'd post something along those lines, as it contradicts what Amnesia has posted.

amnesiajune said: ↑
The transfer window is definitely 120 minutes.

As you are well aware, TTC has not published a number for the current implementation. The current programming can only be deduced by looking at examples.

And it's clearly 120 minutes or greater, given the example shown, at that transfer location.

So which is it Amnesia? And Fitz?

You took me to task a few months back for my claiming (gist) "I'd assumed from reading this forum that the transfer window is 120 minutes", to which you answered (gist) "That used to be the case, but it was temporary and changed back in January". I have the post stashed away on another HDD, I'll dig it out and post it later.

Amnesia wrote:

amnesiajune said: ↑
Subway-to-surface: Always

Subway-to-subway: Never

Surface-to-surface: Always

Surface-to-surface-to-surface: Never

Surface-to-subway: Only at valid transfer points.

If this is a case of "very clear" God only knows what confusion is. So let's assume Fitz is right. What possible reason could the TTC have for not publishing this information if it's so "clear"?

Could the public not handle this? Too confusing? TTC themselves don't know? They'll get back to us when they figure it out?