Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[wopchop]

What I would like to see is more automation of fare collection and have a station manager on site to actually manage the station. I know a lot of Underground stations already have this setup. I think it would be great from a customer service perspective, as the manager could assist passengers, as well as make sure that the station is clean and maintained.

 

[rbt]

Are there any subway or rail systems which even HAVE unstaffed stations?

Many agencies including London Underground have low to no staff at their lesser used stations. London gets away with it because most popular destinations have gates at the exit but it only works for very quiet stations (Bessarian might be a candidate) and they've been phasing this out as their fare-fraud teams grew in size.

Vancouver didn't have agents in most stations (or fare gates) and driverless trains. This created some interesting issues with random things placed in doors (box, trashcan, etc.) at an empty station with an empty train requiring someone to drive over to remove the item. Increased cameras, off-peak ridership, and introduction of fare-gates has helped reduce these service outages.

 

[nfitz]

Vancouver didn't have agents in most stations (or fare gates) and driverless trains. This created some interesting issues with random things placed in doors (box, trashcan, etc.) at an empty station with an empty train requiring someone to drive over to remove the item. Increased cameras, off-peak ridership, and introduction of fare-gates has helped reduce these service outages.

Yes, Vancouver is odd. Walked into a Skytrain station to buy tickets once ... not only could I not find a human, I couldn't even find a vending machine other than a single fare. They replaced the humans with phones on the wall ... and the person on the other end said I had to walk a couple of blocks to a drug store to buy tickets. Very bizarre ... and not very impressive!

 

[cplchanb]

Many agencies including London Underground have low to no staff at their lesser used stations. London gets away with it because most popular destinations have gates at the exit but it only works for very quiet stations (Bessarian might be a candidate) and they've been phasing this out as their fare-fraud teams grew in size.

Vancouver didn't have agents in most stations (or fare gates) and driverless trains. This created some interesting issues with random things placed in doors (box, trashcan, etc.) at an empty station with an empty train requiring someone to drive over to remove the item. Increased cameras, off-peak ridership, and introduction of fare-gates has helped reduce these service outages.

Same with Rome on their lesser stations, the man that was there was just a warm body for PR and security...he did not sell fares and just points to the machines
Terminus stations on the other hand....much more staff presence not to mention security for pan-handlers and pickpockets

 

[mdrejhon]

Speaking of which....
....What is Metrolinx's rollout for real-time instant online refill? (Bypass 24 hour limit)

This is difficult for disconnected Presto stations and bus/streetcar Presto stations, since they need to have their subscriber data updated as infrequently as nightly...
But in theory, easy to do instantly for:
....Presto readers & balance checkers on the ground, connected to network. They can all easily get realtime updates. (e.g. all readers at Union)
....Presto vending machines, since they are defacto connected in order to authorize debit/credit (online balance query & fill-up).
....Cashiers. Line up at customer service, have cashier tap card for you (instant online balance fill-up). All cashiers are connected due to debit/credit auth.

Data volume of realtime shouldn't be an issue for hard-wired Presto readers; if the data updates are done on a differential basis. 5000 customers per hour buying online refills could be updated on a 60 second basis at a few customers each minute, in a data packet of less than one kilobyte per minute. Even a stadium surge could be handled.

 

[nfitz]

Speaking of which....
....What is Metrolinx's rollout for real-time instant online refill? (Bypass 24 hour limit)

Is there one? As you point out, it's very difficult for many readers.

But in theory, easy to do instantly for:
....Presto readers & balance checkers on the ground, connected to network. They can all easily get realtime updates. (e.g. all readers at Union)
....Presto vending machines, since they are defacto connected in order to authorize debit/credit (online balance query & fill-up).
....Cashiers. Line up at customer service, have cashier tap card for you ...

It already is instant for cashiers/customer service. And I thought a lot less than 24-hours already at readers and balance checkers - what have you observed ... I've got Autoload, so no experience.

 

[innsertnamehere]

my understanding is that if you tap on TTC readers (PNG), it will be instant, but if you tap on older readers (Everywhere else), it will always be 24 hours.

 

[Electrify]

I've had stationary readers not update even AFTER 24 hours! After the headache of getting money back, I've decided if this ever happens again, I'm giving myself a free ride on the Viva. I don't condone fare dodging, but in 2015 if I load money to a multibillion dollar hardwired stationary terminal network from the internet, there is no reason why it should not be there instantly - let alone after 24 hours!

Fortunately I haven't seen lag like this since, and said reader later displayed "Not in Service," so I got some free rides "honestly" anyways.

 

[nfitz]

my understanding is that if you tap on TTC readers (PNG), it will be instant, but if you tap on older readers (Everywhere else), it will always be 24 hours.

I don't think it's ever been "always 24 hours". I saw only 20 hours years ago ...

 

[Evening]

Speaking of which....
....What is Metrolinx's rollout for real-time instant online refill? (Bypass 24 hour limit)

This is difficult for disconnected Presto stations and bus/streetcar Presto stations, since they need to have their subscriber data updated as infrequently as nightly...
But in theory, easy to do instantly for:
....Presto readers & balance checkers on the ground, connected to network. They can all easily get realtime updates. (e.g. all readers at Union)
....Presto vending machines, since they are defacto connected in order to authorize debit/credit (online balance query & fill-up).
....Cashiers. Line up at customer service, have cashier tap card for you (instant online balance fill-up). All cashiers are connected due to debit/credit auth.

Data volume of realtime shouldn't be an issue for hard-wired Presto readers; if the data updates are done on a differential basis. 5000 customers per hour buying online refills could be updated on a 60 second basis at a few customers each minute, in a data packet of less than one kilobyte per minute. Even a stadium surge could be handled.

I heard that Ottawa was using cellular technology onboard their buses to make their load time within 4 hours. Is it not possible to use this same technology to make updates very close to real time? (not an expert so I'm not sure)

 

[Evening]

It already is instant for cashiers/customer service. And I thought a lot less than 24-hours already at readers and balance checkers - what have you observed ... I've got Autoload, so no experience.

The load instantly goes onto your card when you do it at cashier however that load doesn't show up online until whenever their system sync which could be once every 24 hours. I think what the previous commenter was suggesting is that there isn't really any excuse for why any hardwired equipment should not be syncing in realtime.

 

[innsertnamehere]

^card balance is stored on the card itself, not the machines.

So when you get it loaded in person, the employee can update the card immediately. When you do it online, you have to wait for the system to sync to update it as the balance can not be updated until you tap your card.

When you tap your card, the goal is to keep the number of operations to a minimum.

This is what happens now:

If NEW BALANCE = Y, increase BALANCE by Y VALUE & change Y to N
If BALANCE > FARE, subtract FARE from BALANCE & display FARE PAID
If BALANCE < FARE, display INSUFFICIENT FUNDS

When you load the card, the system changes to Y ($50), or whatever your value is. Thing is, the terminal needs to be updated to receive this information. When loading in person, the terminal at the cashier is updated instantly, and thus can update the fare value on your card instantly.

essentially 3 lines of code. When a new amount is loaded onto a card, all terminals are updated with that information. If you held the balance of each card on the system side of things, which would allow for instant updates in balance, you would have to get terminals to query databases to look for balance information when you tapped your card, which would considerably slow down the tap speed to the point of crippling the system.

My understanding of PNG is that it will allow for instant updates as new tech is being installed in the new readers that allow the entire system to be updated immediately after a card load online.

 

[epcjay]

Any one have a list of the subway stations getting the next set of presto readers? They better include Scarborough Centre this time.

 

[mdrejhon]

I want instant Presto updates.

I often refill my Presto via my phone's web browser, or my iPad LTE, every paycheck.. Modern web browsers on smartphones have reliably let me do Interac e-Transfers and Interac Online payments for all major banks. I'd like to do it 5 minutes before tapping my Presto card, while waiting for a GOtrain at Union, so I don't have to stand in line at the vending machines or cashiers! I don't use autoload, or want to (at this time).

I am aware of the 4 hour updates at the Union readers. I try to remember to do it on the morning GOtrain ride, for the evening Presto tap, but sometimes I forget, or I run unexpectedly low due to weekend rides, or TTC taps, or I refilled using an amount that runs out between paychecks, etc.

 

[mdrejhon]

I heard that Ottawa was using cellular technology onboard their buses to make their load time within 4 hours. Is it not possible to use this same technology to make updates very close to real time? (not an expert so I'm not sure)

This is probably possible, yes. But for simplicity (and expense), always-connected fixed readers are easier to make realtime first.

It really should be possible. I can instantly refill a Presto Card at a cashier with cash.
But I can't tell the cashier to tap the card for me to refill my online balance, online refill is not instant refill even when tapping at a cashier after I pay online.

As I've said again, this should be addressed! When I've spent a budget with a $200 Presto refill for two weeks of rides (it costs $10 per ride for me), and the online refill is in lala land for several hours. And no way to speed up the online refill of a used-up Presto card. Forcing me to buy a ticket at the GO fare vending machine in a hurry, and often my rides in prestocard.ca no longer seems to qualify for a tax deduction anymore because it doesn't fill out a whole month's of rides anymore. (I'll have to check if keeping tickets and adding them in, makes it re-qualify for a tax deduction, if the GO tickets bump the number of rides to 20 roundtrips -- I'm sure an accountant would let that fly). Otherwise, that's a hundred dollars of tax deduction lost there, because an online refill took too long (happened once already for me)... one ride short of qualifying for a tax deducation! And yes, I could use autofill, but I run a tighter budget due to the new homeownership, so I avoid auto-payments that can't be scheduled on predictable dates. So no Presto autofill for me. Just have to remember to refill before I go too close to empty. Or do a single ride or two cash refill at the cashier instead next time, even if the cashier lineup is long!