Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[Voltz]

Yes, because when I think of a line that goes to the airport, I think of a line that has to stop at every intersection and make a ton of extra stops. Seriously name me one rapid transit line in a major city around the world, where the airport link is at grade. I'm waiting.

Every Intersection, a ton of extra stops?. The speed and capacity to the Airport would have been just fine with the western section on the surface, this is not the Heathrow Express.

 

[ARG1]

Every Intersection, a ton of extra stops?. The speed and capacity to the Airport would have been just fine with the western section on the surface, this is not the Heathrow Express.

Its not the Heathrow Express and more akin to the Piccadilly.

 

[sche]

Yes, because when I think of a line that goes to the airport, I think of a line that has to stop at every intersection and make a ton of extra stops. Seriously name me one rapid transit line in a major city around the world, where the airport link is at grade. I'm waiting.

First I'd argue UPX, not EWLRT, is 'the' airport link, but ignoring that, there are some examples I can think of for at grade airport links:

- Paris-Orly is connected with a grade separated people mover connecting to RER B but it also has the at grade tram line 7, so that's kind of an example. (Yes, Paris Orly is a secondary airport with 32 million passengers a year vs 49 million for YYZ, but Paris is also a much larger city than Toronto)
- DFW airport in Dallas (75 million passengers a year) has only the DART orange line, which is LRT with grade crossings, though it has very few grade crossings because it isn't in median, making it more like Calgary C-Train.
- The new Crenshaw LAX LRT line also has a few grade crossings, and is partially in median, though it is also more like C-Train in terms of grade separation, stop spacing, etc.
- Phoenix also has completely at-grade median LRT that leads to a people mover that goes to its airport (46 million passengers a year). This is the only major rail transit line in Pheonix.

That said the at grade EWLRT was really dumb because it connects to the fully grade separated Mississauga Transitway, which imo is more important than the airport in terms of grade separation. At grade median LRT is just generally not great for major corridors because it's just slow, especially with the 500m stop spacing that we're seeing in Toronto. The number of stops on the old ECLRT was ridiculous. (FWLRT is similar but I don't mind as much because it seems to be more a 'high capacity slightly faster bus' feeder route as opposed to rapid transit on a major regional corridor)

 

[ARG1]

First I'd argue UPX, not EWLRT, is 'the' airport link, but ignoring that, there are some examples I can think of for at grade airport links:

- Paris-Orly is connected with a grade separated people mover connecting to RER B but it also has the at grade tram line 7, so that's kind of an example. (Yes, Paris Orly is a secondary airport with 32 million passengers a year vs 49 million for YYZ, but Paris is also a much larger city than Toronto)
- DFW airport in Dallas (75 million passengers a year) has only the DART orange line, which is LRT with grade crossings, though it has very few grade crossings because it isn't in median, making it more like Calgary C-Train.
- The new Crenshaw LAX LRT line also has a few grade crossings, and is partially in median, though it is also more like C-Train in terms of grade separation, stop spacing, etc.
- Phoenix also has completely at-grade median LRT that leads to a people mover that goes to its airport (46 million passengers a year). This is the only major rail transit line in Pheonix.

That said the at grade EWLRT was really dumb because it connects to the fully grade separated Mississauga Transitway, which imo is more important than the airport in terms of grade separation. At grade median LRT is just generally not great for major corridors because it's just slow, especially with the 500m stop spacing that we're seeing in Toronto. The number of stops on the old ECLRT was ridiculous. (FWLRT is similar but I don't mind as much because it seems to be more a 'high capacity slightly faster bus' feeder route as opposed to rapid transit on a major regional corridor)

UPX really only serves those coming from Downtown. EW will serve those coming from midtown. Not to mention, nobody is going to transfer to UP Express at Mt. Dennis when EWest opens (if it is Grade separated). Your point about Mississauga transitway is absolutely valid though.

 

[M636RF]

I caught car 6207 on CP today. I assume that it’s headed to Thunder Bay.

 

[Bordercollie]

The Alstom cars might be new to Canada, but are in service in other parts of the world.

As for stuff like cab heating problems and stuff, that is likely a result of not doing enough cold weather testing.

 

[superelevation]

The issues with the Ottawa system have nothing to do with the choice of technology and everything to do with being the first line to use the Citadis Spirit (teething issues) and the incompetence of the p3 organization that built the line, worsened by a particular rag newspaper operating in Ottawa that will do anything it can to attack the current administration, blowing some of the smaller issues with the O-Train out of proportion.

The trains are an issue though, hes not wrong that the line would be near perfect with better rolling stock . . .

Even though the western section of the line will needlessly and wastefully be in a tunnel, the line would have handled the ridership just fine when that part was planned to be on the surface. I can definitely say the line will have enough capacity in 15 years since it was modeled out well beyond that time frame to be well under capacity.

The studies and modelling done are highly questionable, just go look at how the studies "envisioned" elevated stations, it was clear that the study was sandbagged to suggest at grade was best . . .

I for one agree that elevating is wasteful, but the wide right of way that is used to justify our 3rd full length metro line as a tramway could just as easily be used for a far superior elevated extension . . .

First I'd argue UPX, not EWLRT, is 'the' airport link, but ignoring that, there are some examples I can think of for at grade airport links:

- Paris-Orly is connected with a grade separated people mover connecting to RER B but it also has the at grade tram line 7, so that's kind of an example. (Yes, Paris Orly is a secondary airport with 32 million passengers a year vs 49 million for YYZ, but Paris is also a much larger city than Toronto)
- DFW airport in Dallas (75 million passengers a year) has only the DART orange line, which is LRT with grade crossings, though it has very few grade crossings because it isn't in median, making it more like Calgary C-Train.
- The new Crenshaw LAX LRT line also has a few grade crossings, and is partially in median, though it is also more like C-Train in terms of grade separation, stop spacing, etc.
- Phoenix also has completely at-grade median LRT that leads to a people mover that goes to its airport (46 million passengers a year). This is the only major rail transit line in Pheonix.

Three of these are in cities which honestly we should not be emulating from a transit perspective, the last as you say has a connection to the RER which is high capacity and not really comparable to our subways much less Eglinton. I don't think anyone would complain if after Eglinton being connected to YYZ as a grade separated line, Finch came into the airport at grade . . .

As we know the UP as nice as it is, is simply not build for major passenger volumes which means whatever the standard rail connection is will get a ton of patronage, add to that the fact that Pearson is a massive employment zone and the transfers from the transitway, and new TOD's and new transit users spurred by the central section of the Crosstown significantly cutting travel times and its easy to see why this line should be grade separated, if not for speed and convenience for capacity.

 

[Reecemartin]

I'm in a new apartment, expect lots of pictures of our new LRV's

 

[Allandale25]

^ I'm trying think of where that is without going on Google Maps cc @Reecemartin

 

[Johnny Au]

^ I'm trying think of where that is without going on Google Maps cc @Reecemartin

Looks like Scarborough (near the middle of Sheppard, Midland, Highway 401, and Kennedy)

The railway line with the LRV is on a CP Midtown corridor, the railway line on the lower-left corner is the Stouffville Line, and the creek on the lower-right corner is a branch of Highland Creek.

 

[drum118]

Nov 20
6207 waiting for CP to pick it up

 

[Allandale25]

^ Interesting. I would have assumed the CN to CP handover would happen at the CP Lambton Yard (as part of the regular CN-CP transfer?) but I guess some kind of inspection happens at the MSF siding? @smallspy @crs1026

Not sure how current this explanation is:

WEST TORONTO - West Toronto was Toronto's traditional Canadian Pacific railway neighbourhood, but Canadian National and its predecessors maintained a significant presence here too. CN's West Toronto Station, located on Old Weston Road just north of the CPR diamond, was razed a few years back. Express sheds and yard trackage serving the old Stockyards have also disappeared in recent years. At Old Weston Road, there is a CTC-controlled connecting track to CP's Mactier Subdivision. It's used daily by a CN transfer to deliver interchange traffic to CP's Lambton Yard.

 

[crs1026]

^ The MSF spur runs off CP’s Mactier Sub. It just happens that the connecting track between CP’s Mactier Sub and the ML Weston Sub is within sight of the MSF.

The transfer run from CN at Mac Yard to CP at Lambton comes down the Weston Sub, through the connecting track, and continues down the Mactier Sub into Lambton Yard. If an LRV were to be delivered via CN (as the TTC cars coming back from repairs in Quebec do, also the initial delivery of Crosstown cars from Kingston being shipped to Thunder Bay for finishing work) CN would bring it to Lambton. CP would then have to deliver the car to the MSF.

As for 6207, it is reportedly heading for Thunder Bay. So a CP terminal assignment will pick it up at the MSF, as shown in the picture, take it to Lambton, and perhaps on to Agincourt, to be marshalled into a CP train for Thunder Bay. There is no CN presence in that movement.

Confused?

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

^ I think I got it!

 

[ProjectEnd]

^ I'm trying think of where that is without going on Google Maps cc @Reecemartin

Looks like Scarborough (near the middle of Sheppard, Midland, Highway 401, and Kennedy)

The railway line with the LRV is on a CP Midtown corridor, the railway line on the lower-left corner is the Stouffville Line, and the creek on the lower-right corner is a branch of Highland Creek.

My guess would be Avani 1 in Metrogate. If not that, perhaps Selene? It's a fantastic view of two corridors you've got there, @Reecemartin!