Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[nfitz]

^ Were the first Flexities trucked from CP's Agincourt Yard to Hillcrest? I can't remember.

Urban Toronto did a piece on it when 4400 arrived. http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2012/10/new-streetcars-reach-toronto

 

[crs1026]

There was no indication that they'd ship it all the way from Kingston to Toronto by truck. Only that a police escort would be necessary during the shipping. It could have been simply from the delivery yard in Toronto to Mount Dennis. The same way that first Flexity vehicles for TTC were also trucked before the delivery spur was completed at Hillcrest.

But I'm only guessing ...

Good catch - Hadn’t thought of that. It would save bucks and time and hassle if they unloaded up at CN’s Mac Yard, and trucked from there, as the interchange from CN to CP is the circuitous part. But there is a siding from CP built into the OMSF - there’s a picture back in the Crosstown thread somewhere.

So maybe it’s only the first “expedited” shipments that will be trucked.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

Good catch - Hadn’t thought of that. It would save bucks and time and hassle if they unloaded up at CN’s Mac Yard, and trucked from there, as the interchange from CN to CP is the circuitous part. But there is a siding from CP built into the OMSF - there’s a picture back in the Crosstown thread somewhere.

So maybe it’s only the first “expedited” shipments that will be trucked.

- Paul

It may cost more money to ship it to Mac and off-load it there. Realistically, a very big part of the cost of a move like that is going to be the load and unload - and if a crane is needed, it doesn't matter if your loading it in Kingston or in Vaughan. In fact, you might as well load it in Kingston and be done with it.

The one thing where off-loading it at Mac would save money is with the interchange fees - that's $10k twice right there.

Dan

 

[robmausser]

I still don't see why Metrolinx is so desperate to have a vehicle sit around in a yard for at least 2 years before they can do any serious testing on the line.

Because this is the deadline they chose and its irrelevant to the construction delays. They told Bombardier to have them ready for this day contractually, and if Bombardier fails, thats a serious issue of trust between corporations.

This isn't "my dog ate my homework", this is billions of dollars in tax payer money.

 

[nfitz]

Because this is the deadline they chose and its irrelevant to the construction delays. They told Bombardier to have them ready for this day contractually, and if Bombardier fails, thats a serious issue of trust between corporations.

That's the case Metrolinx made, when they tried to terminate Bombardier's contract a couple of years ago, because they'd failed to deliver the cars back in 2015 or so. And the judge threw that out of court, making fun on Metrolinx in the decision.

Surely based on that decision, construction delays are highly relevant!

 

[crs1026]

It may cost more money to ship it to Mac and off-load it there. Realistically, a very big part of the cost of a move like that is going to be the load and unload - and if a crane is needed, it doesn't matter if your loading it in Kingston or in Vaughan. In fact, you might as well load it in Kingston and be done with it.

The one thing where off-loading it at Mac would save money is with the interchange fees - that's $10k twice right there.

Dan

We know they can load by ramp at Kingston, because they have been doing it with the KW cars. So no extra cost there.
I agree, A transfer to truck at Mac Yard might cost big money... but perhaps they could station a ramp there, iOn doesn’t need theirs any more, it might be rentable.

I guess we will see in time.

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]

I still don't see why Metrolinx is so desperate to have a vehicle sit around in a yard for at least 2 years before they can do any serious testing on the line.

September, 2021 is almost two years from now. We require ALL 76 light rail vehicles to be on sight, so do the math. The first ones would be looked at very, very closely. Mechanically, electrically, physically, and software. The Mount Dennis station will likely be finished first, and then the station itself has to be tested, using the light rail vehicles. Other stations would each have to be tested in turn, again with the light rail vehicles.

 

[nfitz]

September, 2021 is less than two years from now.

Closer to 3 years away than 2 years away!

 

[robmausser]

September, 2021 is almost two years from now. We require ALL 76 light rail vehicles to be on sight, so do the math. The first ones would be looked at very, very closely. Mechanically, electrically, physically, and software. The Mount Dennis station will likely be finished first, and then the station itself has to be tested, using the light rail vehicles. Other stations would each have to be tested in turn, again with the light rail vehicles.

The project is already delayed a year, could you imagine if we get the LRTs late, realize there are issues and they have to delay the Crosstown further? Look whats happening with Ion LRT. The tracks are sitting done and empty for a year now.

Lets make sure this doesnt happen again.

 

[hw621]

The project is already delayed a year, could you imagine if we get the LRTs late, realize there are issues and they have to delay the Crosstown further? Look whats happening with Ion LRT. The tracks are sitting done and empty for a year now.

Lets make sure this doesnt happen again.

How?

 

[nfitz]

The project is already delayed a year, could you imagine if we get the LRTs late, realize there are issues and they have to delay the Crosstown further? Look whats happening with Ion LRT. The tracks are sitting done and empty for a year now.

Given the most recent delay to Ion occurred after most of the new cars had been received, it's hard to put the continuing delays on Bombardier, given they've had enough vehicles for training and testing for months now.

I thought the ongoing issue was a software/hardware unit related to the vehicle control, that wasn't Bombardier's responsibility. Perhaps someone who is more familiar with this can speak?

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Given the most recent delay to Ion occurred after most of the new cars had been received, it's hard to put the continuing delays on Bombardier, given they've had enough vehicles for training and testing for months now.

I thought the ongoing issue was a software/hardware unit related to the vehicle control, that wasn't Bombardier's responsibility. Perhaps someone who is more familiar with this can speak?

The Region of Waterloo sat for 4 years on the signalling and communications equipment requirements stated by Grandlinq and only signed a contract to install the equipment in May 2018 when the equipment requirements were to be known by 30 May 2014. They easily could have amended the vehicle procurement contract and had this equipment installed at the factory during assembly which would have saved about 8 months. Instead they decided to sit on the information for 4 years and then sign a contract to install at the last possible second. So now Bombardier has to strip the cabs and parts of the ceiling in other modules, move one screen to the right most display module, run more wiring harnesses to each cab end and install all the new equipment. It's a process that would have been better suited for production rather than having to retrofit the equipment into already assembled vehicles.

 

[TOareaFan]

The Region of Waterloo sat for 4 years on the signalling and communications equipment requirements stated by Grandlinq and only signed a contract to install the equipment in May 2018 when the equipment requirements were to be known by 30 May 2014. They easily could have amended the vehicle procurement contract and had this equipment installed at the factory during assembly which would have saved about 8 months. Instead they decided to sit on the information for 4 years and then sign a contract to install at the last possible second. So now Bombardier has to strip the cabs and parts of the ceiling in other modules, move one screen to the right most display module, run more wiring harnesses to each cab end and install all the new equipment. It's a process that would have been better suited for production rather than having to retrofit the equipment into already assembled vehicles.

Really? In a recent CBC article about the delays, they note they are still going to try and recover financial penalties from bbd for the delays.

 

[rbt]

Really? In a recent CBC article about the delays, they note they are still going to try and recover financial penalties from bbd for the delays.

They would be foolish not to; there are (most likely) millions at stake and a trial will cost a few hundred thousand or less if staff lawyers can do the work. Both sides made mistakes, they'll likely come out ahead even if BBD is only found 20% at fault.

 

[TOareaFan]

They would be foolish not to; there are (most likely) millions at stake and a trial will cost a few hundred thousand or less if staff lawyers can do the work. Both sides made mistakes, they'll likely come out ahead even if BBD is only found 20% at fault.

I was just commenting on the @jordanmkasla2009 post.....if those are the facts then there is no case.

The strategy you describe is kinda what ML tried with their suit about the Crosstown vehicles.....so, yeah, if paying more for less vehicles is a win then yes.....give it a shot