Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[raptor]

For the record, the TTC Subways (TR, T1) are not red either. Can we lay this topic to rest?

 

[TOareaFan]

Whereas red would say “this is a TTC streetcar” and the risk is that people will treat it as such. TTC included.

Use them how? In great numbers to move around? I really don't know what the concern is.....whether you call it a subway (since a lot of its under ground) or a light rail vehicle or an underground streetcar.....it will be judged on whether it improves the transit lives of a significant number of people and increases mobility in a congested part of the city......I think it does that no matter what colour the vehicles are.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The predecessor to the Toronto Transportation Commission was the Toronto Civic Railway, both municipally owned. The livery colours of the TCR was green.

From link.

 

[TOareaFan]

The predecessor to the Toronto Transportation Commission was the Toronto Civic Railway, both municipally owned. The livery colours of the TCR was green.

From link.

that woman is either evading a fare or she is a huge Led Zeppelin fan!

 

[crs1026]

Use them how? In great numbers to move around? I really don't know what the concern is.....whether you call it a subway (since a lot of its under ground) or a light rail vehicle or an underground streetcar.....it will be judged on whether it improves the transit lives of a significant number of people and increases mobility in a congested part of the city......I think it does that no matter what colour the vehicles are.

In Toronto, streetcars are a ‘brand’. They have attributes which some love and others hate. Potential riders know the brand and ride, or not. Those attributes and hence the ‘brand identity’ is longstanding and not easily changed.

Crosstown and the other lines - Hurontario, Finch, KW, Hamilton - need to be unveiled such that old baggage does not propogate and attach to the new services. Hopefully they are better performing and lead to customer delight. Better to keep the mindset away from the streetcar.

This does not imply ‘livery’ or ‘consultant designed’ branding - paint ‘em whatever, just keep them distinct from the streetcar stereotype.

Lastly, I do not trust TTC or City staff to leverage the advantages of the new lines towards subway level performance. Time will tell if schedules, dwell times, timekeeping, etc are managed tightly or if the current culture of streetcar mediocrity prevails. If we end up reading detailed Steve Munro analyses of Crosstown performance, with issues and concerns, we will know that TTC sees the line as a streetcar. I’m jaded, and hopefully I’m wrong.

- Paul

 

[pman]

“Customer delight”...uh....might be...you know...a bit of a stretch.

 

[44 North]

In Toronto, streetcars are a ‘brand’. They have attributes which some love and others hate. Potential riders know the brand and ride, or not. Those attributes and hence the ‘brand identity’ is longstanding and not easily changed.

Crosstown and the other lines - Hurontario, Finch, KW, Hamilton - need to be unveiled such that old baggage does not propogate and attach to the new services. Hopefully they are better performing and lead to customer delight. Better to keep the mindset away from the streetcar.

This does not imply ‘livery’ or ‘consultant designed’ branding - paint ‘em whatever, just keep them distinct from the streetcar stereotype.

Lastly, I do not trust TTC or City staff to leverage the advantages of the new lines towards subway level performance. Time will tell if schedules, dwell times, timekeeping, etc are managed tightly or if the current culture of streetcar mediocrity prevails. If we end up reading detailed Steve Munro analyses of Crosstown performance, with issues and concerns, we will know that TTC sees the line as a streetcar. I’m jaded, and hopefully I’m wrong.

- Paul

I think some on here may be over-expecting signal priority, or think that if approaching a red stoplight the LRV can simply turn it green and race through at 60km/h. It won't work like that. I also wouldn't be all that surprised if the signal priority sort of morphs into what we have now around the city, where a driver can hold the green. Definitely not knocking the line, or saying "hey that's not true LRT", or rapid transit. It will be all these things. But if you think about it, it could make sense that things turn out that way. And say a driver is stopped at a red and the doors have already closed, up walks a person on the platform, or a group of people more likely. Are they just not going to let them on? They likely will.

Performance overall will probably be less than any of the docs stated. Again not knocking the line. But over such long stretches like from Don Mills to Kennedy it'd be mighty hard to match speeds in a computer model, or maintain headways.

The livery thing I think is somewhat disappointing. I've probably said in the past that Metrolinx is dreaming in technicolor, but in this instance it'd be nice if they actually did. Even if painted just like streetcars am sure people would still love it. But at the same time our subways are unpainted metal that seem to go out of their way to look cold and sterile, so it's not like Toronto can say hey learn from us.

 

[Towered]

Why would you expect something other than grey for Toronto?

 

[robmausser]

I think some on here may be over-expecting signal priority, or think that if approaching a red stoplight the LRV can simply turn it green and race through at 60km/h. It won't work like that.

It wont but it can. Most LRT systems in the USA (and Calgary/Edmonton) are much more brute force. A gate comes down and that LRT is going through, whether the light is red or green.

Of course we would never do this in Toronto. We also couldnt do it because we built our LRTs down the centre of the roadway, not beside them. Our LRT's really are LRT-lite. A mix of streetcar and LRT

 

[stanko]

Can we lay this topic to rest?

No, not until the confusion is cleared up. What I want to know is whether all LRVs on LRT lines being built by Metrolinx are going to have the same livery despite them running in different cities with different operators

 

[crs1026]

Performance overall will probably be less than any of the docs stated. Again not knocking the line. But over such long stretches like from Don Mills to Kennedy it'd be mighty hard to match speeds in a computer model, or maintain headways.

I don’t disagree - but if we are both correct in that, it takes the wind out of the sails of some of the LRT proponents who have waxed poetic about various lines and projects. And it’s a very dangerous thing for public perception, because if the end product does not match the sales pitch, public reaction will suffer and headlines will appear. “Under promise, over deliver” has to apply here... and that starts with a realistic presentation of performance etc. Those models need to be viewed as an operational commitment, or they mean nothing.

My knowledge of transit priority signalling comes from actually riding vehicles with a transit guy who pointed out where it was in place and what it was doing (and not doing). I think I have a realistic sense of the technology. My angst about the local implementation is not the gadgetry, but the number of places on our system where it could be applied but City staff are opposed, or don’t care. And the number of places (left turn lanes being the prime example) where autos shouldn’t be allowed to compete with transit vehicles at all.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

I think some on here may be over-expecting signal priority, or think that if approaching a red stoplight the LRV can simply turn it green and race through at 60km/h. It won't work like that.

It wont but it can. Most LRT systems in the USA (and Calgary/Edmonton) are much more brute force. A gate comes down and that LRT is going through, whether the light is red or green.

My immediate thought was ION. Some of the K/W fans have posted vids of the trials, and even not going top speed yet, you can sense the 'impetus' of the vehicles. When I heard the alarms for the crossing gates coming down, it immediately cued memories of the San Diego Trolley, albeit a number of systems in Canada and the US use them. The San Diego Trolleys from my times down there have left a lifetime impression. And and lasting feeling of "why them and not us?"

Of course we would never do this in Toronto. We also couldn't do it because we built our LRTs down the centre of the roadway, not beside them. Our LRT's really are LRT-lite. A mix of streetcar and LRT

For a variety of reasons, this is the case. Toronto still isn't up to the task of doing transit the way it could/should. The King Pilot immediately comes to mind. And how it is showing advantage, in spite of all the constraints. And there's a multitude of them. It still takes forever to get across town and up to Dundas West on it, even with improved performance. Across King even, it could do a whole lot more with 'modern' signalling and control, instead of the tepid tampering now done.

My angst about the local implementation is not the gadgetry, but the number of places on our system where it could be applied but City staff are opposed, or don’t care. And the number of places (left turn lanes being the prime example) where autos shouldn’t be allowed to compete with transit vehicles at all.

Absolutely agreed. It's like buying Greyhounds to race them, but their legs are bound together to stop them going too fast through an obstacle course.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Of course we would never do this in Toronto. We also couldnt do it because we built our LRTs down the centre of the roadway, not beside them. Our LRT's really are LRT-lite. A mix of streetcar and LRT

That's not really a barrier to setting up this kind of system. Most of the CTrain system runs in the median of roads also, crossing gates and all, the CTrain never waits for a red light. It only runs in "streetcar mode" through downtown where it runs in mixed traffic with buses.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Tweet text is irrelevant (and we don't know what type of rolling stock the Hamilton LRT will use yet, as it is up to bidders), but here is a shot of two Metrolinx Flexity Freedoms in MU mode.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1070422274828840968

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

My immediate thought was ION. Some of the K/W fans have posted vids of the trials, and even not going top speed yet, you can sense the 'impetus' of the vehicles. When I heard the alarms for the crossing gates coming down, it immediately cued memories of the San Diego Trolley, albeit a number of systems in Canada and the US use them. The San Diego Trolleys from my times down there have left a lifetime impression. And and lasting feeling of "why them and not us?"

For a variety of reasons, this is the case. Toronto still isn't up to the task of doing transit the way it could/should. The King Pilot immediately comes to mind. And how it is showing advantage, in spite of all the constraints. And there's a multitude of them. It still takes forever to get across town and up to Dundas West on it, even with improved performance. Across King even, it could do a whole lot more with 'modern' signalling and control, instead of the tepid tampering now done.

Absolutely agreed. It's like buying Greyhounds to race them, but their legs are bound together to stop them going too fast through an obstacle course.

ION LRVs that have all the FIE (Free Issue Equipment) installed all have traffic signal preemption devices installed to change the traffic signals.