Metrolinx $55 Billion Plan

[Dan416]

See reasoning above. The subway to VCC will create transit friendly development in that area from a blank slate. We don't want to make the mistake of Square One again....

Why on earth would you build a subway to a blank slate? That makes no planning sense whatsoever.

And what's the mistake of Square One you refer to? One is probably location the MCC at Hurontario and Burnhamthorpe rather than Hurontario and Dundas. The other is not getting a subway? As I said, I'd love a subway. But for a suburban centre, Square One has great transit. Loads of MT bus routes and very frequent GO buses outside of rush hour.

They might get a subway if they were willing to fund its construction and its O&M. York is negotiating both right now. They came to the table with money....I don't see why Mississauga can't do the same. Till then....NO SUBWAY FOR YOU! (to paraphrase a certain seinfeld chararcter...) Seriously though, a subway does not seem very high on the list for Mississauga city councillors, so I doubt that they would be willing to divert resources to help build a subway when there are so many other pressing local transit needs in 'sauga right now.

Maybe this issue will die with Hazel. Get some new blood into city hall and maybe Mississauga will finally demand the subway it needs. But Hazel likes to run things out of debt, and Mississauga, unfortunately, could not fund a subway extension without going into debt. In fact, I doubt anyone could, least of all a suburb.

 

[kEiThZ]

Some will resort to driving into downtown anyway, as paying a fortune for gas and parking is still cheaper than being constantly late for work, due to the inability to squeeze into the subway.

Fair enough. But does that justify the argument that the DRL must be prioritized over everything else? Metrolinx above all else is trying to reduce traffic and get people moving. On that front, there is much more room for improvement and success in the burbs than in the core. I wouldn't argue that the DRL is not necessary. It is. But I don't think the DRL would have the greatest bang for the buck.

Others will seek employment outside Toronto's downtown. At some point, employers will notice and start moving away ... new location not necessarily being within GTA.

As they should. I believe that's the point of creating all these hubs....to spread residents and jobs more evenly throughout the GTA so that not everyone will need to travel downtown everyday. More than anything re-distributing people and jobs will be the most sustainable action ever taken. Torontonians will finally start living locally again.

 

[kEiThZ]

Why on earth would you build a subway to a blank slate? That makes no planning sense whatsoever.

Explain to me why you think it does not make planning sense. Here's how I see it:

1) Subway is cheaper to build when development has not crowded the corridor yet
2) Adding the subway will significantly boost the value of the surrounding land improving the potential for developers and the city's tax base
3) With the subway in place, the city can craft development plans that focus on the subway and ensure sufficient density to support the line from the beginning....no re-zoning and re-building required. The city can demand dense development from day 1.

What's illogical about all that?

And what's the mistake of Square One you refer to? One is probably location the MCC at Hurontario and Burnhamthorpe rather than Hurontario and Dundas. The other is not getting a subway? As I said, I'd love a subway. But for a suburban centre, Square One has great transit. Loads of MT bus routes and very frequent GO buses outside of rush hour.

Not much of the MCC is within walking distance of where the subway stop would be. Worse, the office buildings are all so spread out in the vicinity of Square One as well...too long to walk and in many cases too short a distance to serve effectively and efficiently with buses. And there is the location issue...which simply adds to the cost of extending the subway there. Sure there is a case to be made for building the subway to Square One as a transit hub and terminus, but building a subway there would not bring in new development....and therefore, the tax base does not have significant potential to improve at Square One, with or without a subway.

Maybe this issue will die with Hazel. Get some new blood into city hall and maybe Mississauga will finally demand the subway it needs. But Hazel likes to run things out of debt, and Mississauga, unfortunately, could not fund a subway extension without going into debt. In fact, I doubt anyone could, least of all a suburb.

I highly doubt we'll see a subway to Mississauga in the next 2-3 decades. It certainly isn't in Metrolinx 25 year plan. What is there is connection to regional rail for MCC via Hurontario. And that makes much more sense anyway. How many people from MCC would really want to sit on a long subway ride through Etobicoke to get to downtown when they can catch a BRT/LRT down Hurontario and then catch a fast GO Train all the way to union? The reality is that the most gains to be had will come from improving transit within Mississauga ie the Hurontario corridor than from improving inter-city connectivity. That's probably why council would prioritize a Hurontario BRT/LRT over paying for a subway. I don't see them coughing up money for a subway to Square One for a while. And why would they when GO seems to be a good job shuttling 416/905 commuters to/from Mississauga.

 

[Rainforest]

I believe that's the point of creating all these hubs....to spread residents and jobs more evenly throughout the GTA so that not everyone will need to travel downtown everyday. More than anything re-distributing people and jobs will be the most sustainable action ever taken. Torontonians will finally start living locally again.

Mobility hubs in lieu of a single downtown is a good concept. But if the existing downtown chokes, businesses might leave GTA altogether, which means a net jobs loss for the region. Or, they might relocate to car-friendly places within GTA, rather than to the new mobility hubs.

 

[kEiThZ]

Mobility hubs in lieu of a single downtown is a good concept. But if the existing downtown chokes, businesses might leave GTA altogether, which means a net jobs loss for the region. Or, they might relocate to car-friendly places within GTA, rather than to the new mobility hubs.

True enough and that's why Metrolinx is trying desperately to set up most of those hubs in the 15 year plan....so that businesses migrate to the hubs instead of quitting the GTA entirely.

What's more, their relocation will probably have more to do with the cost of doing business downtown rather than the lack of transit connections. Heck, its already happening...most companies who are based downtown are relocating at least some of their staff and functions out of the core. The 905 is already growing fast than the 416. This will simply continue as jobs start to relocate outside the core as well.

I highly doubt that prioritizing the DRL back a decade and a half would result in a significant outflow of jobs. Most of the slack for the next little while can be taken up by the Yonge line capacity improvements which is one of the Quick Win projects. By the time we burn through that added capacity, we'll be on time to build the DRL. In the meanwhile, there are other transit priorities throughout the region that need our attention...and tax dollars.

 

[Edward Skira]

Why on earth would you build a subway to a blank slate? That makes no planning sense whatsoever.

I've got some great pictures of Queens and the Bronx with elevated subways running through farmland. Of course you can see the subdivision coming soon signs all around. In this case high density neighbourhoods followed the subway. Can work as long as the land around it is zoned for high density from the outset. And high density in the sense of Yonge and Finch and not Glencairn Station.

 

[Dan416]

Explain to me why you think it does not make planning sense. Here's how I see it:

1) Subway is cheaper to build when development has not crowded the corridor yet
2) Adding the subway will significantly boost the value of the surrounding land improving the potential for developers and the city's tax base
3) With the subway in place, the city can craft development plans that focus on the subway and ensure sufficient density to support the line from the beginning....no re-zoning and re-building required. The city can demand dense development from day 1.

What's illogical about all that?

You know what you're right. Subways are cheaper to build when there's nothing there. I can think of lots of potential in the Arctic and Siberia where a subway would be fabulously cheap to build, as no one lives there.

More locally, I think places like Peterborough, Niagara-on-the-Lake and Woodstock could all use subways for a little shot in the arm.

 

[Whoaccio]

Explain to me why you think it does not make planning sense. Here's how I see it:

1) Subway is cheaper to build when development has not crowded the corridor yet
2) Adding the subway will significantly boost the value of the surrounding land improving the potential for developers and the city's tax base
3) With the subway in place, the city can craft development plans that focus on the subway and ensure sufficient density to support the line from the beginning....no re-zoning and re-building required. The city can demand dense development from day 1.

What's illogical about all that?

I think building a subway before development occurs can make sense in many cases. Projects like the DLR or the Copenhagen Metro have been used in conjunction with a larger urban development scheme. WRT to Vaughan though, there is nothing remotely large enough in scale to justify a subway in the works. Sheppard West will be in an empty field for the foreseeable future. Finch West might see a couple condos (on lands owned by Sorbara's family no less) but will remain a feeder station. York Station makes sense, I suppose, but lacks any real "redevelopment" potential. Steeles West is a wasteland. 407 interchange is a highway interchange. Vaughan corporate centre seems like a bit of a scam anyways. Some property developers will probably see their Futureshop's parking lot go up in value, and then make some campaign donations to the Liberal Party. I don't see why Vaughan Corporate Center exists save to score a subway. Of course, we only have a subway to make VCC "feasible."

I'll take what I can get, but I don't see how this was prioritized over something like a DRL, the Yonge-Richmond Hill extension, completing Sheppard, putting the SRT out of it's misery, GO upgrades or just about any other project.

 

[Dan416]

I'll take what I can get, but I don't see how this was prioritized over something like a DRL, the Yonge-Richmond Hill extension, completing Sheppard, putting the SRT out of it's misery, GO upgrades or just about any other project.

All vastly more important projects than the Sorbara Subway.

 

[kEiThZ]

More locally, I think places like Peterborough, Niagara-on-the-Lake and Woodstock could all use subways for a little shot in the arm.

None of those are around 30km from downtown Toronto, within the greenbelt and designated as a place to grow.

I think building a subway before development occurs can make sense in many cases. Projects like the DLR or the Copenhagen Metro have been used in conjunction with a larger urban development scheme. WRT to Vaughan though, there is nothing remotely large enough in scale to justify a subway in the works.

Well, its up to Vaughan not to squander the opportunity here. If they do....then T.O. will have justification not to take a subway line outside the 416 again.

I'll take what I can get, but I don't see how this was prioritized over something like a DRL, the Yonge-Richmond Hill extension, completing Sheppard, putting the SRT out of it's misery, GO upgrades or just about any other project.

Like I said earlier, there are political realities. Do I agree with prioritizing this subway over other projects. No. But if T.O. is going to banging its drum around the region and the province for funding we will have to learn to play with the neighbours. The only reason the extension is there for York is because the line is going to the VCC. Otherwise, the busway would have proven sufficient. It's pretty hard to sell billions in subway funding for what is seen as just a benefit to Toronto like the DRL...I don't even think the rest of the GTA would support us. That's probably why the DRL is in the 25 year plan not the 15 year plan. Why would Mississauga for example support the DRL when they have more local pressing transit needs? And those local transit needs are also why they won't come knocking for an extension from Kipling for a while.

When it comes to potential though, I still believe the VCC offers some incredible opportunities to create transit friendly development. If this is done right, it might turn out like a mini DLR...if not well...then nobody outside the 416 will probably get a subway again. There's no other greenfield space close to the 416 that offer's this potential and can be offered a subway extension for that price. Building to MCC would have cost a hell of a lot more than 2 billion....to a place that's largely built up, and won't necessarily have many riders heading to downtown Toronto (why take the subway when GO train is faster?).

 

[DavidH]

Like I said earlier, there are political realities. Do I agree with prioritizing this subway over other projects. No. But if T.O. is going to banging its drum around the region and the province for funding we will have to learn to play with the neighbours.

Well, if that's the case, I want an extension of the B-D into Whitby so as to connect with the federal finance minister's riding. Of course, the fact that it would give me a subway stop within a few km of my house has nothing to do with it.

We have to draw the line someplace. Unfortunately, Metrolinx is turning into yet another agency making politicized decisions.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well, if that's the case, I want an extension of the B-D into Whitby so as to connect with the federal finance minister's riding. Of course, the fact that it would give me a subway stop within a few km of my house has nothing to do with it.

The GO Lakeshore would still be faster right?

 

[Anth]

Torontonians will finally start living locally again.

This is unrealistic in an important global city and financial centre full of organizations requiring a wide range of highly skilled specialists and technicians, all of whom will naturally be scattered across the metro area. Significant regional travel will always be part of the equation here no matter how much decentralization takes place.

 

[DavidH]

The GO Lakeshore would still be faster right?

Depends on where you are going. But you've addressed exactly the point I was making - use the right choices in the right places. Ideally, if we lived in the world where everything was free, we'd build subways everywhere. In the real world, we need to make sensible choices - and sadly, we're still not entirely doing that.

 

[kEiThZ]

This is unrealistic in an important global city and financial centre full of organizations requiring a wide range of highly skilled specialists and technicians, all of whom will naturally be scattered across the metro area. Significant regional travel will always be part of the equation here no matter how much decentralization takes place.

Nobody is disputing that regional travel is important. But it is not any more or less important than local travel. Providing excellent local transit is vital to funnelling in riders for all those regional lines that will be built.

As for the argument that global cities are highly centralized with only one core, I don't buy it. It's definitely not the case in most large cities in Europe and Asia where they have small dense centres distributed throughout the urban region. And we are already seeing this phenomenon in Toronto: MCC, SCC, etc.

Depends on where you are going. But you've addressed exactly the point I was making - use the right choices in the right places. Ideally, if we lived in the world where everything was free, we'd build subways everywhere. In the real world, we need to make sensible choices - and sadly, we're still not entirely doing that.

Fair enough. We should be using the appropriate mode of transport for the appropriate corridor. I still fail to see about what is inappropriate about building a subway stop to an area that will hold tens of thousands of jobs and residents and acts as a hub for the western end of York region. Also, as per my understanding, there will be significant development around the Jane/407 subway stop in addition to the 407 busway/transitway eventually which also be feeding in passengers.

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