evandyk
Senior Member
Waymo will definitely cost jobs in the funeral home industry. The mayor is against that!
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Mayor Olivia Chow's Toronto
- Thread starter DSCToronto
- Start date
nightstreak
Senior Member
I sleep better knowing there's a progressive in power but I'm seeing the detriment to it as well with homeless people left piled up on sidewalks and in transit vehicles and seeing a mayor who's completely detached from enforcing public order. The rules of society are breaking down. People are ignoring rules — not just on the road — they're rude to one another, they cut in lines, they smoke in non-smoking areas, they talk on speakerphone in enclosed spaces. I can't be the only one noticing Toronto's fame for being a clean and polite New York City is vanished. I'd take New York City right now.
I think a Mayor can be an inspirational figure that guides a city and acts as its moral centre. Chow is not that type of Mayor and nobody running for the job is. I'm dreaming for our own Zohran Mamdani one of these days.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Unfortunately, the city of Toronto, the mayor, and city council is considered a "child of the province of Ontario", and has to do Premier Doug Ford's bidding... or else.
picard102
Senior Member
I would imagine it comes from people's fundamental misunderstanding of the roles in government, what they actually can do, and who the media decides to tell them is at fault.
Northern Light
Superstar
Now hold on...........homlessness, people sleeping on transit, or fare evading is not new to the Chow administration.
These social issues you mention are real, and merit attention, but lets be clear they built up over several years beginning at least during the Tory mayoral years, if not earlier.
Further, as these phenomenon are not unique to Toronto, but have been seen across the continent, I think laying blame at the feet of the current mayor is just not reasonable.
I would go further and note, there are far fewer encampments in parks now than when Chow became mayor. That's right, a decrease under a progressive mayor.
Now, do the issues on the ttc need a firmer hand? I think that's a fair take, but I'm not sure anyone is going to make the near term. A lot of this issue is up to the province in terms of how we address acute addiction, and mental illness.
Now that does not explain away the current rate of fare evasion. A big part of this is internal politics inside the TTC and its unions, and resolving that is no mean trick.
nightstreak
Senior Member
Fair. These are social issues caused by a decade plus of conservative municipal mismanagement (Rob Ford and John Tory) and Doug Ford's withdrawal from social services, exacerbated by the pandemic. Completely agree.
But I disagree that some of these issues were worse under Tory. There was fare enforcement under Tory. I don't even know why I'm paying a fare anymore, 2 or 3 out of every 5 who board don't pay.
And many of us can attest to the homelessness on transit (there's a thread) being a relatively recent issue ( fare enforcement in previous years would kick them off) that has just gotten completely out of hand in the past year. Mayor Chow is trying to solve the issue with long term investments in the shelter system. Sure, good for her for trying to fix the underlying issue but this is a chronic and urgent problem — right now. Waiting years for shelters and affordable housing to be built so people aren't sheltering on the TTC isn't going to solve the issue for millions of Torontonians having to commute on transit with public health concerns and safety issues.
Yes, they've moved into the streetcar system.
So the Mayor has no power for anything. Why even have a mayor, right? The Mayor has extraordinary power to bring public attention to a matter that forces those in charge to solve those issues to get out of the heat.
I'm on the verge of buying a car. I've never owned a car in Toronto, ever. If you could lose me, a lifelong urbanist and transit rider, I can only imagine that transit ridership is heading towards an imminent collapse, which in a farebox funded system will drive up fares and turn into a vicious cycle of ridership loss. Leaving people on transit because a progressive mayor is afraid of political correctness, to the detriment of everyone else, then maybe I don't want a progressive mayor anymore.
We need a technocrat, a Mark Carney municipal equivalent who isn't afraid of using their powers to return social order while addressing the underlying issues with fact based asset deployment and short and long term investment. I don't know who that is but give me someone with deep knowledge of the workings of the city, who also has compassion and can champion the city. The more I talk about this person, I think I'm talking about Josh Matlow. He needs to run.
picard102
Senior Member
You have a source for these numbers?
The number reported for 2024 was 12%, which is 1 in 5 if we round it up from 0.6 people.
urbanclient
Active Member
I could be wrong, but I think @nightstreak is talking about the streetcars. Anecdotally, fare dodging does seem to be worse on the streetcars. I've never even witnessed fare dodging on the subway, but maybe that's because I'm not paying attention.
Edit, yes:
I wouldn't be surprised if 29.6% is an underestimate for both 2023 and now.
junctionist
Senior Member
Maybe you’re seeing people who already tapped elsewhere?
When Tory was in power, there were random stabbings on the TTC. It’s a lot better today, but there’s a lot of work to be done to get homeless people from sheltering on transit. The situation could easily be improved with better enforcement of loitering laws and laws against using drugs on transit vehicles.
nightstreak
Senior Member
Yes, this. I rarely ever take a subway because I live and work downtown so I'm on the streetcar network 99% of the time. I don't expect people are hopping faregates to the subway but with all door boarding and no enforcement, anecdotal observations riding the streetcar, you see a bunch of people board and only hear a few taps. It's no secret. It's widespread fare evasion.
You have to tap every time you board a new vehicle. Say you're returning home and there are 20 minutes left on your 2 hour window, you tap on the first vehicle, then switch to another vehicle without tapping, if a fare inspector asks you to prove your fare (hahahaha, that doesn't happen anymore), there's no record of your boarding that vehicle legally.
urbanclient
Active Member
Seeing as I rarely ride the streetcars, and the ones I do are overcrowded even on weekends (504), I find it physically difficult to tap on in a crowd. I've tapped off instead of on before. Gotta get those TTC numbers up, it's a free transfer for me anyways.
I wouldn't be surprised if some patrons forget to tap when they're busy bracing themselves.
The overcrowding might make the TTC observers miss fare evasion, but they might also miss fare compliance...
junctionist
Senior Member
Yes, the rule is that you're supposed to tap on when getting on every surface vehicle, but the two-hour transfer can be calculated using the time of the original tap.
The rule seems like it was merely meant to give the bus or streetcar driver the ability to enforce fares (as was the practice before Presto), but that era seems long gone with the new streetcars. The Presto era of multi-door boarding relies on fare enforcement, which I agree could be much better.
The rule seems like it was merely meant to give the bus or streetcar driver the ability to enforce fares (as was the practice before Presto), but that era seems long gone with the new streetcars. The Presto era of multi-door boarding relies on fare enforcement, which I agree could be much better.
Northern Light
Superstar
Good.
I think I'm going to need some evidence for this assertion. I certainly agree that fare evasion is a problem and I do see it regularly, almost every time I ride, yet...........I don't think its anywhere near 67%, moreover the fare revenue collected statistics do not support that conclusion.
Fare revenue collected 2025: 1,022,000M (not audited yet) (so just over 1B)
Fare revenue collected 2019 1, 270,000M ( 1.27B)
2025 Estiamted Rides: 414,000,000
2019 Estimated Rides: 525,470,000
If we compared the ridership figure to the revenue figure, revenue per ride is solid (not declining)
Ridership revenue is at 80.4% of 2019 levels
Ridership itself is 78.8% of 2019 levels.
* now, let me say there are problems with the wave ridership is calculated, but so long as the mistakes are constant from 1 year to the next, it should be an okay barometer here.
But lets supposed the ridership numbers are low relative to actuals (unpaid riders) ; based on service hours the TTC is ran 91% of the service hours in 2025 that in ran in 2019.
We know schedules are more bloated than they were then, but lets be really conservative on that front, service, as experienced by the rider was at least 12% below 2019 levels last year..so all other things being equal, you would expect 12% less riders. That suggests an increased rate of fare evasion of up to 10% of all riders (more) vs 2019.
* I'm actively mathing this out as I post, but didn't want to hold the post and stale date it, I will update it if I'm able to nail this down better.
About those safety issues:
Lets compare that to the report from April last year:
Safety hasn't been this good since before 2020.
We need to separate instincts from evidence.1
Yes, there are social awkward and inappropriate behaviors. But no, there is not added safety risk.
With respect, the evidence shows you're completely wrong here. Yet your reactions are borderline hysterical (but not fumy)/ i think you're a smart guy. But you've allowed a few experiences to taint your perception beyond reason.
I fundamentally disagree with your conclusion. I want you to provide evidence for your postilion or admit you are wrong. You're 'feeling' rather than 'thinking' this through.
nightstreak
Senior Member
The evidence is hard to come by because the Mayor has rarely if ever leveraged that enormous power which is entirely the point of my argument.
But there have been instances where she fell into that power completely by accident and it has proven itself.
That time someone recorded herself walking King Street and beat the 504? The media picked up on it and Mayor Chow had to respond, not wanting to be seen as doing nothing about an embarrassing problem. She brought in traffic agents on a moment's notice, found the budget, coordinated departments, moved the resources, got it done — they were shown to solve the problem and became permanent. The issue remains solved.
Almost identical: that guy who ran alongside the Finch LRT and beat it by 15 minutes. Again, media attention forced her hand and she moved mountains, leveraged TTC and Metrolinx resources to implement signal priority and the problem is being solved.
This is exactly the power of the Mayor. Her megaphone and her ability to set the agenda. She doesn't use it.
Picture Mayor Matlow with his sleeves rolled up, walks into the press room on the first floor at City Hall. Everyone stands to attention, not expecting the Mayor down there.
Hey guys, here's a box of donuts. So.... my office has compiled a study showing traffic enforcement downtown is down 80% since before the megacity. We also set up cameras at 3 busy intersections and witnessed red light violations every few traffic cycles, improper turns, speeding. Some of them occurred with police at the intersection. The footage and study is dropping in your inbox right about now — DING! Oh, by the way, the Boston Cream donut is the best, sorry I ate two. I eat my donuts while I get work done.
Every major media outlet, two hours later:
MAYORS OFFICE: POLICE HAVE CEASED TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT
Traffic enforcement down 80%, Cops turn a blind eye to major violations. Chief Demkiw unavailable for comment. Mayor: "I eat my donuts while I get work done."
NYC Mayor Mamdani knows how to use this kind of power. Watch how he drives the agenda. New York has similar restrictions in what it can do requiring State buy-in. Not the same but comparable roadblocks. He gets the citizens of New York behind him, intimidating both the State and somehow the White House to give him what he needs to fulfill his policies.
Northern Light
Superstar
With respect you made specific assertions about fare evasion and rider safety that are not supported by any facts and not because the mayor is suppressing them.
In point of fact, virtually none of the above is true.
When the mayor became aware of these issues she did order action taken to address them. Action she is now ordering applied to the entire streetcar network. Something no one had done before here.
I have to plead w/you to stop saying things that are out of line w/the facts.
You notice I give hard information and can provide links. This is the appropriate standard, your gut is not evidence.
1) I like Josh, and I know Josh, ... but you're wildly exaggerating. That's taking nothing away from him, he has a deft populist touch.
2) Mamdani has not and will not deliver on most of his promises. I like his overall direction, but NYC is teetering on a fiscal cliff and much of what he wants requires state support. Free bus service is not yet a thing, nor is universal childcare, nor is a rent freeze.