Mayor John Tory's Toronto

[zang]

Yeah the funny thing is BLM says get rid of police to protect blacks

Then say nothing about how unsafe those neighborhoods are to the black community and even more without any semblance of law and order.

I agree in USA these arguement may have some basis but not in canada.

So, how well has over-policing actually helped predominantly black areas? Has crime gone down? I'm waiting.

I'm willing to bet arrests have gone up though.

Most crime originates in poverty and class struggle. Policing only attacks (heh) the symptoms and not the cause. Want to get rid of crime in predominantly black areas?

If even half of the billions of dollars spent on police forces in this country were put towards ending income inequality, decriminalizing drug use (all of it), providing for the homelessness and raising the minimum wage to a living one—instead of overloading cities with an army of angry white guys with a chip on their shoulder—we'd see a drop in crime and society would be better off for it. That's not theoretical—see most of Northern Europe.

If you see every reason crime exists as only treatable with armed police, then you're part of the problem.

 

[Jasmine18]

Most of Toronto police is angry minorities actually

Using your definition.



Also I dont think black areas are over policed at all in canada.


Also look into gang warfare in sweden and the outskirts of paris. It's not paradise on earth as we pretend.

 

[Northern Light]

Most of Toronto police is angry minorities actually

Using your definition.



Also I dont think black areas are over policed at all in canada.


Also look into gang warfare in sweden and the outskirts of paris. It's not paradise on earth as we pretend.

Did @zang mention Paris? Because if he did, I missed it.

I could swear he said Northern Europe, not Western Europe

Let me say comparing 'violent crime' writ large can get a bit messier.

But using homicides, every northern European country has a rate lower than Canada.

Homicide rate for:

Canada: 1.76
Sweden: 1.08
Denmark: 1.01
Norway: 0.47
Finland:1.63
Iceland: 0.89

For the Record: France is 1.2
U.S. 4.96

 

[Jasmine18]

I think you guys forget that canada has a lot of gun crime due to a lot of guns from America.

cant compare us to Europe if we are so connected to America.

I am sure you the European Countries beside America they wont be the same.

 

[Northern Light]

I think you guys forget that canada has a lot of gun crime due to a lot of guns from America.

cant compare us to Europe if we are so connected to America.

I am sure you the European Countries beside America they wont be the same.

You know what you forget?

To do your research before posting.

I don't mean to be rude. I want to be fair.

But you just shoot from the lip without looking anything up or constructing a real argument!

If your argument is true; that simple proximity to the U.S. border is the issue; then you'd expect to see similar homicide rates across Canada, presumably, at least in comparable size cities? Fair?

So let's look:

Distance to US border Homicide Rate
Toronto: 131.5km 2.26
Montreal 100km 1.11
Vancouver 38km 1.66

Hmm, the closer you get to the U.S. border, the more the homicide rate drops????

Or maybe something else is at play?

What else could be different?

Quebec: $15 per day daycare; low university tuitions (under 4k)

Number and rate of homicide victims, by Census Metropolitan Areas

Number and rate (per 100,000 population) of homicide victims, Canada and Census Metropolitan Areas, 1981 to 2019.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

 

[Jasmine18]

You know what you forget?

To do your research before posting.

I don't mean to be rude. I want to be fair.

But you just shoot from the lip without looking anything up or constructing a real argument!

If your argument is true; that simple proximity to the U.S. border is the issue; then you'd expect to seem similar homicide rates across Canada, presumably, at least in comparable size cities? Fair?

So let's look:

Distance to US border Homicide Rate
Toronto: 131.5km
Montreal
Vancouver

I dont pretend to know everything and yes you guys do research to find whatever will suit your narrative.

I just point out holes in the argument that people have is "lets be like Europe! by cutting the police force in half and we will become like Europe yeahhhh"

Its not that simple and we have to understand that Toronto is a growing city that already has a huge issue of not enough police to answer current calls. Now you guys suggest we get rid of 50% of the police force and everything will be fine.

Like there is a reason why defund the police polls so badly with the public.

 

[Northern Light]

What major City has Canada's highest homicide rate?

Edmonton: 2.6 (Winnipeg actually edged Edmonton out last year, but is under 1M people)

Which major City is furthest from the U.S. border? Edmonton (611km)

Edit to add: Scrolling the Stats can List, most cities hover within 1.5 of the overall Canada number.

One city jumped out at me though; Thunder Bay, Ontario, Homicide rate 6.38

 

[Northern Light]

I dont pretend to know everything and yes you guys do research to find whatever will suit your narrative.

I just point out holes in the argument that people have is "lets be like Europe! by cutting the police force in half and we will become like Europe yeahhhh"

I just think things are much more complicated than that.

There is no hole in the argument.

I just established that.

Please pay attention.

The facts are not a narrative.

The facts are facts

Thoughtful opinions are arrived at AFTER surveying the facts, not before.

 

[Jasmine18]

There is no hole in the argument.

I just established that.

Please pay attention.

The facts are not a narrative.

The facts are facts

Thoughtful opinions are arrived at AFTER surveying the facts, not before.

Where are the facts that getting rid of 50% percent of the Toronto police force will make us safer like Northern Europe?

and are you really suggesting that Guns from the USA does not cause a crime issue in Canada? Like the sole reason we really cant disarm the police in Canada is due to the high number of guns in Canada compared to the UK or other places.

You are just presenting facts that suit your own narratives which i just point huge holes in

 

[Northern Light]

Where are the facts that getting rid of 50% percent of the Toronto police force will make us safer like Northern Europe?

and are you really suggesting that Guns from the USA does not cause a crime issue in Canada?

Northern European police forces are not 1/2 as large per capita as Toronto's.

They are similar in size or slightly smaller.

The distinctions worth noting would be that they are less likely to be armed; that they are likely to be far better trained (3 years post-secondary in many of these countries); but that officers are likely to make slightly less.

The real distinction is that their crime rates are meaningfully lower without more police than us.

That the material differences in our societies are generally ones of greater social spending and less inequality and poverty in Northern Europe and better control of hand guns.

***

Of course U.S. guns are an issue.

But Montreal shows its not that simple.

With a homicide rate closer to northern Europe, while being closer to the U.S. border; they show that demand for guns is obviously lower in their city and its criminals show more restraint in using them.

Since they have the same gun laws we do; it follows logically that you have to look for other reasons for the difference.

I would argue that Montreal establishes a correlation between greater social equity/lower poverty and lower homicide rates.

One can't say its causative but it seems probable that there is an effect.

 

[Jasmine18]

Northern European police forces are not 1/2 as large per capita as Toronto's.

They are similar in size or slightly smaller.

The distinctions worth noting would be that they are less likely to be armed; that they are likely to be far better trained (3 years post-secondary in many of these countries); but that officers are likely to make slightly less.

The real distinction is that there crime rates are meaningfully lower without more police than us.

That the material differences in our societies are generally ones of greater social spending and less inequality and poverty in Northern Europe and better control of hand guns.

***

Of course U.S. guns are an issue.

But Montreal shows its not that simple.

With a homicide rate closer to northern Europe, while being closer to the U.S. border; they show that demand for guns is obviously lower in their city and its criminals show more restraint in using them.

Since they have the same gun laws we do; it follows logically that you have to look for other reasons for the difference.

I would argue that Montreal establishes a correlation between greater social equity/lower poverty and lower homicide rates.

One can't say its causative but it seems probable that there is an effect.

Montreal has always had the highest police officer ratio per capita as well ... hmmmm however is far more affordable to live in than Toronto.

(cant find article but I heard Zurich Switzerland has a very high level of police spending as well comparable to NA cities)

Canadian cities with the heaviest police presences - National | Globalnews.ca

And it's not always about the crime rate.

globalnews.ca

So really instead of "let's get rid of police and just spend on social issues"

Its likely you need a good size police force and spend on social services... that is my point.

We are a huge growing city and the idea of slashing the police budget in half is not what people want, its what activists on twitter want. Then we just argue the extremes and nothing really changes when I think we can push forth a lot of police reform.

 

[Northern Light]

Montreal has always had the highest police officer ratio per capita as well ... hmmmm however is far more affordable to live in than Toronto.

(cant find article but I heard Zurich Switzerland has a very high level of police spending as well comparable to NA cities)

Canadian cities with the heaviest police presences - National | Globalnews.ca

And it's not always about the crime rate.

globalnews.ca

So really instead of "let's get rid of police and just spend on social issues"

Its likely you need a good size police force and spend on social services... that is my point.

We are a huge growing city and the idea of slashing the police budget in half is not what people want, its what activists on twitter want.

I think there is an argument for shifting some police resources (money) to have mental health and welfare checks handled by mental health professionals, rather than police or with police only in a supporting role.

I also think there are other areas of the Toronto Police budget that could certainly use some cutting. (Mounted Unit, Cameras, Cell phones, Stingrays etc).

Whether the proceeds are best invested in more front-line officers or other social investments I'd leave to another day.

I certainly don't support a 50% cut, as that would give Toronto among the smallest police forces in the world and much smaller than those in Northern Europe.

I think somewhere in the 4-12% reduction range is fair discussion.

Clearly, I believe crime will be better tackled by addressing poverty/inequality; but the amount of money required to do that will be far greater than what can taken from police budgets alone.

It will require both some new taxes; and also money to come from courts and prisons; which will only happen with some mixture of decriminalization/legalization of most drugs, and adult prostitution.

It will also require stricter control of hand guns.

 

[Jasmine18]

Look I think most of the public is more than happy to cut the police force in areas that are not required to mental health or to boost in other areas.

However cutting the raw number of police officers on the streets due to personal spite of police, in general, is not sound policy to me.

 

[picard102]

Hmm, the closer you get to the U.S. border, the more the homicide rate drops????

Was the argument that cities close to the border are worse off? That gun trafficking into Canada only makes it a few km's into the country before dropping off?

 

[W. K. Lis]