valvenis
New Member
Well, some of his biggest fans believe that he can move mountains...moving an entire street, houses included, should be child's play.
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March 2011 TTC Service Cutbacks
- Thread starter Jonny5
- Start date
Well, some of his biggest fans believe that he can move mountains...moving an entire street, houses included, should be child's play.
spider
Senior Member
So, if I observe or count the number of riders on a bus at a given time and place I am dismissed for a variety of reasons but if a TTC employee makes the same observation it is rock solid gospel.
Before I retired I rode the TTC to work for years when it made sense regarding it as a utility not a hobby. My current interest in TTC issues was triggered by the extension of an existing bus route into my sleepy little backwater of a neighbourhood. The residents made it perfectly clear that they didn't want this service, the TTC made their case by projecting that 460 people who never rode the TTC anywhere would ride this bus everyday. Being curious about their claim and having the time to investigate the situation I made my own count along with a few neighbours, seems that their numbers were wildly optimistic to be charitable.
Yes, this was 5 years ago and now we have busses trawling for fares 7 days a week at all hours. Very casual observations compared to data collected 5 years ago seem to indicate that the extension is still nowhere near the original expectations. Fast forward a few months and the extension is proclaimed to be a huge success attracting not just 460 brand new fares but over 700! Hence my lack of confidence in TTC mathematics, they don't count riders.
Before I retired I rode the TTC to work for years when it made sense regarding it as a utility not a hobby. My current interest in TTC issues was triggered by the extension of an existing bus route into my sleepy little backwater of a neighbourhood. The residents made it perfectly clear that they didn't want this service, the TTC made their case by projecting that 460 people who never rode the TTC anywhere would ride this bus everyday. Being curious about their claim and having the time to investigate the situation I made my own count along with a few neighbours, seems that their numbers were wildly optimistic to be charitable.
Yes, this was 5 years ago and now we have busses trawling for fares 7 days a week at all hours. Very casual observations compared to data collected 5 years ago seem to indicate that the extension is still nowhere near the original expectations. Fast forward a few months and the extension is proclaimed to be a huge success attracting not just 460 brand new fares but over 700! Hence my lack of confidence in TTC mathematics, they don't count riders.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
You live in a neighbourhood that actually protested a bus route? You spent months trying to manually count the number of riders on a bus from, what, a street corner? Your car?
taal
Senior Member
The TTC has one of the highest cost recovery figures in North America, clearly they're doing something right. But a counterargument here is most other cities have countless more bus routes that sit empty and even more times of the day ... and that's probably correct ...
spider
Senior Member
Both actually.
Please note that the route extension began and ended at a clearly defined border that was at a stop sign/bus stop with a raised boulevard beside it. Counts were not estimated, they were precise.
An interesting count was made by simply shadowing the bus around the route and noting people boarding or leaving the vehicle at each stop.
Remember I was retired, curious and had a background in data collection.
How do you suppose the TTC counts riders? That's right, they don't because they don't have to.
The TTC has a high recovery rate because they have no other source of funding to fall back on. Rider counts and fare recovery rates in other jurisdictions are meaningless, the fact that the TTC does better is no reason for them to not try even harder to run an efficient utility. No one expects a transit utiity to make money nor does one expect them to throw it away
SlickFranky
Active Member
Umm...you might want to look into this a little deeper. They do count riders periodically. Where do you think their numbers come from?
Saying they have high cost recovery 'because they have to' isn't really an answer. TTC's funding subsidy level (per resident) is middle-of the-road iirc. It's farebox recovery is top tier. Every transit provider in NA is constantly being squeezed for cost savings, generally much more so than the TTC. Explain.
taal
Senior Member
I actually believe the subsidy level is among the lowest as well actually - there was an article regarding this a while back - anyone recall / have information to the contrary ?
Chuck
Senior Member
The TTC's cost recovery ratio is so high because it is under servicing so many parts of the city. How many cities have bus routes which carry 40,000+ people per hour? Remember that there are many cities in the US building new LRT systems for a total projected ridership of under 10,000 per day.
I do agree with Spider in that the TTC should always be on the look out for operating efficiencies. However, the downside of having a cost recovery ratio of over 70% is that we have buses and streetcars operating in the place of subway lines, which frankly is nothing to brag about.
I do agree with Spider in that the TTC should always be on the look out for operating efficiencies. However, the downside of having a cost recovery ratio of over 70% is that we have buses and streetcars operating in the place of subway lines, which frankly is nothing to brag about.
spider
Senior Member
Umm... I defer to a certain Mr Munro who is generally held to know a thing or two about the TTC
http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?3047-Complete-TTC-Subway-Station-Ridership-Figures/page11
reaperexpress
Senior Member
That's 40,000+ people per day (not per hour), but I agree with what you're saying. I think the projections for the LACMTA Expo line are well under 10,000 per day, and that's a fast, well designed LRT going along a well traveled corridor.
SlickFranky
Active Member
Munro commented that surface route counts were infrequent, and that subway counts were inaccurate.. I don't know what this has to do with the scenario you were describing. I still maintain that the TTC can better estimate ridership than a guy in a civic following a bus around. I also maintain that this behaviour you're describing is extremely weird, retired or not.
spider
Senior Member
Only everything.
They couldn't do a better job in this micro picture because you can't improve on perfect, that doesn't sound particularly modest I know but it is factual. The TTC could do as good a job within the parameters they chose (the 122 extension) but the point is they didn't bother.
As far as weird is concerned what have you done recently (or ever) to challenge a position that you perceive to be specious other than promote undefendable opinions and slag those who have the temerity to disagree with you?
nfitz
Superstar
Really ... your using a day that most people have as a statutory holiday, yet they still had to run frequent service as many people were working?
The 122 is very well used - frequently standing room only at 3:55. And is a very good example of a route which shows significant ridership on the extended evening service - I've been quite surprised when I've got on it on runs that didn't used to exist, with how many people were on it.
Your bias is showing - you might well support our mayor who wants to eliminate public transit ...
... though I don't understand how anyone can be so utterly backwards to oppose public transit.
Still Waters
New Member
On counts, the TTC has about 50 permanent staff to do system-wide counts. Not nearly as many would like, but it's what they have. In the case of specific route extensions which are being reported on, the TTC would do a special count just on that new section of route to determine the actual number of riders and compare it to the forecast number. At least, that's what they used to do years ago. The counts are usually taken over the full operating period, not just for a couple of trips.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
I think the TTC is positioning itself for increases in the price of fuel in 2011. It is a two-sided sword. On one hand, increases in fuel prices could send more riders to the TTC. On the other hand, the diesel buses will continue to burn the same amount of fuel but at a higher cost. If no additional riders come on board to offset the fuel price increases, then there could be cuts. The TTC was able to increase service in 2009 and 2010 because the recession forced the price of fuel down, but now it is reversing itself upward.
That is less a problem with the routes that use electricity for fuel (streetcars and heavy rail subway). There will be increases in the price for electricity, but it will be way, way less than the increases for diesel.
That is less a problem with the routes that use electricity for fuel (streetcars and heavy rail subway). There will be increases in the price for electricity, but it will be way, way less than the increases for diesel.