News   Jul 04, 2024
Cranes Get Lower! UrbanToronto Reports the Crane Count for Q2 2024
 665     1 
News   Jul 04, 2024
Parliament & Co Close to Topping Off in Downtown East
 625     0 
News   Jul 04, 2024
News Roundup for July 4, 2024
 586     1 

March 2011 TTC Service Cutbacks

A couple comments about late night bus ridership:

Firstly, ridership is typically uni-directional. Departing from the subway, the bus may carry a decent number of people. At 1 am however, there likely won't be anyone heading back toward the subway in the other direction. Just because the bus is empty in one direction doesn't mean that it's not well used in the other direction.

Secondly, all of the smaller bus routes add up. Eliminate them, and all of a sudden the subway is carrying fewer people. With fewer late night riders, perhaps the TTC might ponder less frequent subway service, or ending service altogether at midnight.

Finally, here's a point to consider about my own commuting patterns. I gave up my car and purchased a metropass because the TTC enables me to make all types of trips at all times of the day by transit with great ease - not just commuting to work. Therefore, it is completely accurate to say that it is only because of the odd Sunday trip here, and the even rarer late night trip there, that I also make those extra 40 trips to and from work each month by TTC instead of by the car which I used to own. You do the math.
 
Chuck said:
A couple comments about late night bus ridership:

Firstly, ridership is typically uni-directional. Departing from the subway, the bus may carry a decent number of people. At 1 am however, there likely won't be anyone heading back toward the subway in the other direction. Just because the bus is empty in one direction doesn't mean that it's not well used in the other direction.

Secondly, all of the smaller bus routes add up. Eliminate them, and all of a sudden the subway is carrying fewer people. With fewer late night riders, perhaps the TTC might ponder less frequent subway service, or ending service altogether at midnight.

Finally, here's a point to consider about my own commuting patterns. I gave up my car and purchased a metropass because the TTC enables me to make all types of trips at all times of the day by transit with great ease - not just commuting to work. Therefore, it is completely accurate to say that it is only because of the odd Sunday trip here, and the even rarer late night trip there, that I also make those extra 40 trips to and from work each month by TTC instead of by the car which I used to own. You do the math.
Click to expand...

Personally, I would like to see late nite (till 3 AM?) service (an hour after the bars close) on Friday and Saturday nights, and maybe the night before a holiday.
 
Politically, a reduction in transit ridership across the board through the course of Ford's term could be spun as a victory, as costs will be contained. For a mayor who ran (and continues to run) largely on fiscal prudence it wouldn't surprise me if some of his advisors are thinking this way.
 
EnviroTO said:
At the times a bus route would seldom used the Finch Ave bus would not be crammed.
Click to expand...

Someone doesn't ride many suburban bus routes...

One example: the 42A. Maybe one or two people will be on it east of Victoria Park. Often, just the driver. And this isn't 10:30pm, when the Steeles East and Finch East buses are still leaving people behind at Finch station, this would be at, like, 7pm. They keep boosting service on routes like Steeles East because people were getting left behind at Finch station well into the night, though I believe service has finally caught up the 'acceptable level of crowding' seen on other routes.

There's dozens of cases of poor performing routes or branches that are chicken/egg scenarios - ridership is low because service is bad and service is bad because ridership is low, but only some cases will be improved by improving service first. The 42A will probably never have good ridership, no matter what arbitrary number you're using to define good, because there's so many other options for people in the area (Steeles, Finch, and a N/S bus route every 800 metres). Maybe they should run the 42A to Morningside Heights, but while that would increase the ridership, it would also increase the route cost.

"Essential" to the few people who use these routes/branches means little more than a willingness to wait around for them longer at a subway station in exchange for a transfer-free ride with less walking. Cutting them might mean adding a 200m walk, or a transfer from the Finch bus to the Warden or McCowan bus, etc. They're not denying someone insulin or shutting off the power and water in an apartment building. When surface routes are as good as they are in this city, it's no wonder some people see them basically as luxuries. Several times on the 42A, everyone but me has emptied out by Victoria Park or Warden and the driver has asked me where I'm getting off and then sped there...the quicker everyone's off, the more time he gets to rest at the end of the line. That's not essential service.

There isn't just the issue of freeing up a bus to use elsewhere when thinking about "resources," there's dollar and manpower issues to consider. An empty bus at 10pm probably runs full at 5pm, so we'd need to buy another bus to run another bus at 5pm, but the driver's time and pay can be moved from 10pm to 5pm.
 
Last edited:
Northern Magus said:
Don't read much, do you?

It was only front page news during that election thing.
Click to expand...

The best part of his plan is (if you look at the map) to extend the Bloor Subway to Scarborough. He plans to build Victoria Park, Warden and Kennedy Stations by 2015. I guarantee that promise will be kept, given that they were completed in 1968. I doubt, however, that he will manage to build a Willowdale station between Bayview and Bessarion. (It's between Sheppard-Yonge and Bayview).
 
scarberiankhatru said:
One example: the 42A. Maybe one or two people will be on it east of Victoria Park. Often, just the driver. And this isn't 10:30pm, when the Steeles East and Finch East buses are still leaving people behind at Finch station, this would be at, like, 7pm. They keep boosting service on routes like Steeles East because people were getting left behind at Finch station well into the night, though I believe service has finally caught up the 'acceptable level of crowding' seen on other routes.
Click to expand...

Victoria Park is half way through the route. Many routes will have only one or two people on them for the latter half of the route. The 510 is often empty or near to it crossing Lakeshore at night. The further from the subway station the less desirable the mode of transportation. I have a hard time believing the 42 bus is driver only at 7pm.

There's dozens of cases of poor performing routes or branches that are chicken/egg scenarios - ridership is low because service is bad and service is bad because ridership is low, but only some cases will be improved by improving service first.
Click to expand...

If you cut back the service times of a route a couple of hours you are going to see reductions in the number of riders in the hours prior to the new closing period. Obviously the routes that run on the primary arterial routes in the city are going to have greater demand because there is greater employment and nearby density on those routes. However, if the 42 bus truly is empty at 7pm with its 7000+ daily riders and a similar cost recovery ratio to many non-arterial routes in the city the removal of that route would mean the removal of one heck of a lot of routes.

"Essential" to the few people who use these routes/branches means little more than a willingness to wait around for them longer at a subway station in exchange for a transfer-free ride with less walking. Cutting them might mean adding a 200m walk, or a transfer from the Finch bus to the Warden or McCowan bus, etc. They're not denying someone insulin or shutting off the power and water in an apartment building.
Click to expand...

For many of the groups arguing for transit stops out their front door the additional walk is tough to manage... and I am pretty sure, except for at Finch Station, Cummer stops are much further from Finch or Steeles than 200m, and many riders who have a Cummer bus stop as their closest probably walk 200m to get there.

When surface routes are as good as they are in this city, it's no wonder some people see them basically as luxuries.
Click to expand...

If it were a luxury people would park their car which sits unused most of the day for the luxury of the bus.

There isn't just the issue of freeing up a bus to use elsewhere when thinking about "resources," there's dollar and manpower issues to consider. An empty bus at 10pm probably runs full at 5pm, so we'd need to buy another bus to run another bus at 5pm, but the driver's time and pay can be moved from 10pm to 5pm.
Click to expand...

There is also the people displace by bus cancellations to think about. They took the bus, despite its inconveniences, and now the route they take is getting cancelled. For some which are unable to walk that distance and don't have the money for an alternative this takes away their mobility, for some who chose to save money because the stop was conveniently located they might end up paying more to drive, and for some they will walk further and have a longer trip time to go onto another bus route which is already crammed and possibly not find space. Only for those who both cannot afford the alternative nor walk the distance is transit truly essential. The power outage a couple of years back proved large numbers of TTC users are quite capable of walking from the CBD to Eglinton.
 
Ford is planning on giving riders skate boards or roller blades to help them to get to/from the nearest transit route after all the cuts are made. It will be cheaper than that "dam" empty bus that my gravey train run on. It will free up more road space so my car folks can travel faster on those roads.
 
Today, 3:55 PM, York Mills Road west of Leslie, 95 with 5 riders, 115 with 1 rider, 122 with 2 riders all within 100 yards westbound to subway. A little overserved wouldn't you say, if I may use the tired comparison to the automobiles sharing the immediate same road space the TTC loses badly. Those who refuse to believe these observations have got to get out more, even those who believe that 1:00 AM is not late enough, there just may be one more fare out there and we owe them a ride at any cost.
 
Last edited:
The TTC is probably a little bit better at keeping ridership counts than one guy looking through bus windows as he drives around the city. Especially one guy doing so in the goddamned week between Christmas and New Year's Day.

I don't doubt that there are adjustments that could be made to bus service - increasing it on some routes and decreasing on others - to better meet demand, but that's not really not what we're discussing here.
 
GraphicMatt said:
The TTC is probably a little bit better at keeping ridership counts than one guy looking through bus windows as he drives around the city. Especially one guy doing so in the goddamned week between Christmas and New Year's Day.
Click to expand...

Yeah, anecdotal evidence doesn't mean shit, it's a simple as that. TTC should be planning it's service based on the anecdotes of some car driver.
 
Absolutely! Those cars are obviously driving along the same route to the same destinations as the buses- I mean, like who ever needs to not take their car on a route that might overlap a bus route?

Also, people using the bus at that time of day are welfare queens who need to be shot.
 
Last edited:
spider said:
Today, 3:55 PM, York Mills Road west of Leslie, 95 with 5 riders, 115 with 1 rider, 122 with 2 riders all within 100 yards westbound to subway.
Click to expand...

The plural of anecdote is not data.

What matters is the average ridership, not the ridership on a bus or three you see. Average ridership is has to be measured in both directions and over at least a month if not a year.

I used to take the 95 a lot to and from UofT Scarborough. It's winter break right now, so the students aren't riding.

However, coming up with a special schedule for weekdays around Christmas would be a terrible idea. The overhead costs for doing that for every bus route would be enormous, and the lack of predictability in the service would drive ridership down.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top