syn
Senior Member
They may not have used slavery but they still benefited from it. The free labour provided by slaves for hundreds of years is the prime reason the country developed so quickly.
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MacLean's: How Canada stole the American Dream
- Thread starter BuildTO
- Start date
They may not have used slavery but they still benefited from it. The free labour provided by slaves for hundreds of years is the prime reason the country developed so quickly.
BuildTO
Active Member
This whole debate reminds me of the reaction to Sicko (yes, I've made this point before, but it's relevant). When Canadian journalists - the only media to react negatively - dogged Michael Moore for protraying Canada's health system in too positive a light, he asked if they wanted to trade health systems with the US. At that point, they shut up.
A lot of us can post our horror stories about how bad things are in Canada. Parts of this thread verge on one-upmanship; who has worse stories? For sure, we shouldn't take for granted what we have, nor should we pretend we don't have problems. But while some of you seem bent on discrediting the assertions in the original article, there are a lot of facts that can't be denied. The US economy is in a tailspin, the subprime mortgage crisis continues without a single positive note, US banks failures are accelerating, job insecurity is increasing, and consumer confidence is falling. Combine that with a government that is spending money it doesn't have on war, a religious right that exerts a strong influence on government, and rampant, government-legislated homophobia.
Is anyone arguing that things are better there? If so, you're welcome to it...
A lot of us can post our horror stories about how bad things are in Canada. Parts of this thread verge on one-upmanship; who has worse stories? For sure, we shouldn't take for granted what we have, nor should we pretend we don't have problems. But while some of you seem bent on discrediting the assertions in the original article, there are a lot of facts that can't be denied. The US economy is in a tailspin, the subprime mortgage crisis continues without a single positive note, US banks failures are accelerating, job insecurity is increasing, and consumer confidence is falling. Combine that with a government that is spending money it doesn't have on war, a religious right that exerts a strong influence on government, and rampant, government-legislated homophobia.
Is anyone arguing that things are better there? If so, you're welcome to it...
Brandon716
Senior Member
Thanks for the breath of fresh air, BuildTO. 
I could also nit-pick that Canada has taken too strongly a pro-war stance particularly with the new Harper government, but in comparison to the US things are still far better IMO.
I could also nit-pick that Canada has taken too strongly a pro-war stance particularly with the new Harper government, but in comparison to the US things are still far better IMO.
adma
Superstar
Maybe the interesting thing is how this dusk-of-the-American-Empire situation offers incentive to creatively reassess its so-called glory days--like how, from a UT perspective especially, the golden age of mass media was also a nadir for relating to the physical cultural landscape by means other than the delusional and pathological. It's when the seeds were planted for both city and burb becoming bizarro dystopia.
Consider, I guess, the mythical cross-border-media image of Buffalo or Detroit in the 60s and 70s, the way how American TV seemed "cooler" than ours and Top 40 didn't had that Cancon crap, versus what was actually going on in those burgs at the time...
Consider, I guess, the mythical cross-border-media image of Buffalo or Detroit in the 60s and 70s, the way how American TV seemed "cooler" than ours and Top 40 didn't had that Cancon crap, versus what was actually going on in those burgs at the time...
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
BuildTO,
It's not the facts of the article that I am critical of it is the intent and what that says about the character of it's Canadian readership. Basically it's saying "hey look at us we're the best compared to those stupid Americans so take that!". It's what we want to hear, a fluff sermon preaching to the converted. But then again perhaps I protest too much. The tone is slightly light hearted and I mean the purpose of the magazine is to sell cologne and such anyways right?
It's not the facts of the article that I am critical of it is the intent and what that says about the character of it's Canadian readership. Basically it's saying "hey look at us we're the best compared to those stupid Americans so take that!". It's what we want to hear, a fluff sermon preaching to the converted. But then again perhaps I protest too much. The tone is slightly light hearted and I mean the purpose of the magazine is to sell cologne and such anyways right?
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
I totally agree with Tdot, and remind all Canadians that we are not going to progress as long as we selectively take the worst of the United States as our yardstick. It's petty, it's insular and it doesn't contribute to making Canada a better place to live.
Brandon716
Senior Member
On the Sicko comparison, glad you expanded on that topic.
I like to relate things in relative terms. Both nations have problems with health care, ALL nations have problem with health care delivery. Its not a perfect world.
But while you'll hear of the occasional person dying in a hospital in Canada because they were placed on some freak waiting list without their doctor taking proper care of the patient, you'll hear 50 stories of people in America dying because of NO care what-so-ever.
Earlier this year there were several hundred women in Atlantic Canada who were revealed to have gotten wrong results for cancer and some had not received treatments, while others received the wrong treatment.
Then there was a release of several southwestern hospitals in Las Vegas and El Paso, TX that showed that there were tens of thousands of patients exposed to HIV and Hepatitis because of a series of bad policies (and reused dirty needles) that occurred around the same time.
How exactly to do you prepare a letter to send out to thousands of patients to advise them to come in for testing because they were exposed all because of medical neglect??
Both cases are horrific, both are rediculous. Everytime you hear of a horror story in Canada, multiply that by 50 and you have what is going on in American health care.
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BTW, here is an article for the Las Vegas hospital system that found the problem:
http://www.lvrj.com/news/16067972.html
And I'd like to take a moment to state something about for-profit health care. When a medical "company" is worried about their bottom line, and not using fresh syringes because they cost too much to buy (which is the real untold reason why any medical 'professional' would do such a thing) there is a problem.
Doctors and offices around America "cut costs" by doing insane things, like reusing needles. Its a problem with our funding, because we in America don't treat health care as something that is priceless. We always put a price tag on EVERYTHING. That is something that is a disgrace.
These 40,000 people at a Las Vegas clinic is just the largest story, there was another story of an El Paso medical system doing the EXACT same thing earlier this year. And these are just the reported cases...
afransen
Senior Member
Don't worry, there will be a class action suit for a couple trillion dollars.
Dichotomy
Banned
That was a long read! Lots of good points.
My take:
It has always been easy to score cheap political points in this country by bashing the Excited States. C'mon, boys and girls: if we are really honest with ourselves we will admit that we are a teeny weeny bit envious of them. The are, after all, the most successful, richest, influential, powerful economic, cultural, technological and military this poor blue planet has ever seen. Forget Genghis. Forget Alexander. Forget the Ottomons. The buck stops there.
While crossing the massive suspension bridge at Long Beach last October, I marvelled at the sheer immensity of that tiny parcel of American industrial might. Al-quaeda ought to take a vista from that bridge if they want a whiff of what they are up against!
Canada is a great country. I am almost embarassed to admit I was born here, as were my parents and their parents. I get so, so sick of people asking me, "no, where nationality are you really?" CANADIAN.
My partner is Brazilian, so I got a first hand view of the immigration system in this country. No, I will not go there.
According to him, our health system sucks. Sorry, another anecdote.
However, as proud as I am to be Canadian, let's face it: we wouldn't amount to a hill of beans if we didn't have the giant to the south of us. We export more to them than any other country - even our entertainers. (Bill Shatner, come back!) Hell, we even owe our existence to them: why else do you think Britannia was eager to jetison us at the end of the American Civil War when a pissed off, burned out Congress cast their eyes upon us! All of of our biggest companies (what's left of them anyway) either owe their existence to the U.S. market (bootlegging: see Seagrams) or from protectionism (see: Bell, Bombardier, etc.)
I wouldn't trade this country for any other in the world - warts and all. Nor would I want any other country as a neighbor.
One last parting shot before I duck: it's easy to build a happy economy, based on free health care, libraries, schools and electric scooters for every Jennie Craig refugee downtown, but that's only because Washington is spending a trillion dollars a year policing the Sea of Japan, Turkey, the Phillipines - hell, even Cuba!
Try defending our coastline without them, if Russia really decides Baffin Island belongs to them....just kidding.
My take:
It has always been easy to score cheap political points in this country by bashing the Excited States. C'mon, boys and girls: if we are really honest with ourselves we will admit that we are a teeny weeny bit envious of them. The are, after all, the most successful, richest, influential, powerful economic, cultural, technological and military this poor blue planet has ever seen. Forget Genghis. Forget Alexander. Forget the Ottomons. The buck stops there.
While crossing the massive suspension bridge at Long Beach last October, I marvelled at the sheer immensity of that tiny parcel of American industrial might. Al-quaeda ought to take a vista from that bridge if they want a whiff of what they are up against!
Canada is a great country. I am almost embarassed to admit I was born here, as were my parents and their parents. I get so, so sick of people asking me, "no, where nationality are you really?" CANADIAN.
My partner is Brazilian, so I got a first hand view of the immigration system in this country. No, I will not go there.
According to him, our health system sucks. Sorry, another anecdote.
However, as proud as I am to be Canadian, let's face it: we wouldn't amount to a hill of beans if we didn't have the giant to the south of us. We export more to them than any other country - even our entertainers. (Bill Shatner, come back!) Hell, we even owe our existence to them: why else do you think Britannia was eager to jetison us at the end of the American Civil War when a pissed off, burned out Congress cast their eyes upon us! All of of our biggest companies (what's left of them anyway) either owe their existence to the U.S. market (bootlegging: see Seagrams) or from protectionism (see: Bell, Bombardier, etc.)
I wouldn't trade this country for any other in the world - warts and all. Nor would I want any other country as a neighbor.
One last parting shot before I duck: it's easy to build a happy economy, based on free health care, libraries, schools and electric scooters for every Jennie Craig refugee downtown, but that's only because Washington is spending a trillion dollars a year policing the Sea of Japan, Turkey, the Phillipines - hell, even Cuba!
Try defending our coastline without them, if Russia really decides Baffin Island belongs to them....just kidding.
afransen
Senior Member
"All of of our biggest companies (what's left of them anyway) either owe their existence to the U.S. market (bootlegging: see Seagrams) or from protectionism (see: Bell, Bombardier, etc.)"
Above everything else you said, this doesn't hold. You really want to run through the TSX 60 and explain to me how each is a direct product of American beneficence?
Also, we don't owe America a thing. They are lucky to have such a pliable, obedient source of natural resources right next door. They'd really be up the creek right now if Alberta were another Saudi Arabia (plotting their demise through third parties) or Venezuela (whose leader commented recently on the sulfurous odour Bush aka Satan left in the UN building). We don't owe our existence or anything else to America. They attempted invasion and failed. Economic subversion suited their goals, with less risk and expense.
Above everything else you said, this doesn't hold. You really want to run through the TSX 60 and explain to me how each is a direct product of American beneficence?
Also, we don't owe America a thing. They are lucky to have such a pliable, obedient source of natural resources right next door. They'd really be up the creek right now if Alberta were another Saudi Arabia (plotting their demise through third parties) or Venezuela (whose leader commented recently on the sulfurous odour Bush aka Satan left in the UN building). We don't owe our existence or anything else to America. They attempted invasion and failed. Economic subversion suited their goals, with less risk and expense.
Dichotomy
Banned
Read up on your Canadian history - the REAL history, not the revisionist stuff taught today. Manifest Destiny was alive and well in 1866. England was in no mood for fighting another war in 'the colonies,' so we were jetisoned and given our 'freedom.' We were lucky. We didn't have to fire a shot to gain our independence.
But that really is the story of Canada, isn't it? Compromise, retreat? France may be the only other country with as dubious a history as Canada, but then our history is entwined with France's, too. Hmm. I wonder if there is any parallels.
If we owe America nothing, then why do virtually all our entertainers have to make is south of the border if they want to make any money?
But that really is the story of Canada, isn't it? Compromise, retreat? France may be the only other country with as dubious a history as Canada, but then our history is entwined with France's, too. Hmm. I wonder if there is any parallels.
If we owe America nothing, then why do virtually all our entertainers have to make is south of the border if they want to make any money?
H
Hydrogen
Guest
I don't understand what we "owe" America for not invading Canada?
Who, otherwise, was going to invade this country?
And the entertainment requires a global market place of buyers. Without them, less cash for south of the border.
Who, otherwise, was going to invade this country?
And the entertainment requires a global market place of buyers. Without them, less cash for south of the border.
Dilla
Senior Member
Lol wut? Just because they enjoy our comedians and can pay them more than we can (due to having a marketplace 10x the size of ours) doesn't mean we owe them anything. And it's hardly ANY money they go there for, it's megabucks. They can, and often do make a decent living here. Some just outgrow Canada in terms of their popularity. The US gets a lot of everywhere's best and brightest in many fields, does the whole world owe the US due to this?
Your logic here is opaque.
cabbagetowner
Active Member
now mostly worn by american backpackers
Long Island Mike
Senior Member
Let's call it the CANADIAN DREAM!!
Everyone: This is a quite interesting story of a comparison of how the US and Canada are as countries today. Canada has the edge over the US in things like health care,rates of violent crime and even sex lives. Canada is just as good as the US for the desireability of a good country to live in.
Sure Canada has its problems but as a whole Canada is one of the world's best countries to live in for just the general quality of life.
Blix posted that James Howard Kunstler observation - that rant concerning the North American oil dependency and our car-dependent way of life is quite interesting.
People do go emigrate to Canada and natives become successful there - why not call it what it really is - THE CANADIAN DREAM!
That's my thoughts here - Long Island Mike -
Everyone: This is a quite interesting story of a comparison of how the US and Canada are as countries today. Canada has the edge over the US in things like health care,rates of violent crime and even sex lives. Canada is just as good as the US for the desireability of a good country to live in.
Sure Canada has its problems but as a whole Canada is one of the world's best countries to live in for just the general quality of life.
Blix posted that James Howard Kunstler observation - that rant concerning the North American oil dependency and our car-dependent way of life is quite interesting.
People do go emigrate to Canada and natives become successful there - why not call it what it really is - THE CANADIAN DREAM!
That's my thoughts here - Long Island Mike -