London Rapid Transit (In-Design)

[micheal_can]

There are certain parts of downtown London that are prohibitive to building surface LRT. Maybe it's time to ditch that idea and have tunnels.

 

[kEiThZ]

There are certain parts of downtown London that are prohibitive to building surface LRT. Maybe it's time to ditch that idea and have tunnels.

London can have all the tunnels they want. If they pay for them. Let’s be clear here. That’s what all this is about. They want the province and the feds to pay hundreds of millions for a tunnel. And they are willing to hold themselves hostage to traffic till that happens. I say, Queen’s Park and Ottawa should call their bluff. 4 seats in London are not worth hundreds of millions. That money could win more seats on just about any transit project in the GTA.

 

[micheal_can]

London can have all the tunnels they want. If they pay for them. Let’s be clear here. That’s what all this is about. They want the province and the feds to pay hundreds of millions for a tunnel. And they are willing to hold themselves hostage to traffic till that happens. I say, Queen’s Park and Ottawa should call their bluff. 4 seats in London are not worth hundreds of millions. That money could win more seats on just about any transit project in the GTA.

The feds and the province pay for all the other rail transit through out Canada. Even the ION got funding for all 3 levels of government. Why should London not get the same treatment?

 

[kEiThZ]

The feds and the province pay for all the other rail transit through out Canada. Even the ION got funding for all 3 levels of government. Why should London not get the same treatment?

Other communities don’t ask for gold plated transit projects. That’s why. Waterloo isn’t getting tunnels either. And the precedent set if the feds and the province cave to London on this would be terrible. Every community which doesn’t feel like compromising on road space will do the same. This is exactly why London will get the exact same treatment Brampton is getting, when they were told to take a hike on their tunnel request, and Metrolinx went ahead with terminating the Hurontario-Main LRT at Shopper’s World. And London is even less politically relevant than Brampton.

 

[micheal_can]

Other communities don’t ask for gold plated transit projects. That’s why. Waterloo isn’t getting tunnels either. And the precedent set if the feds and the province cave to London on this would be terrible. Every community which doesn’t feel like compromising on road space will do the same. This is exactly why London will get the exact same treatment Brampton is getting, when they were told to take a hike on their tunnel request, and Metrolinx went ahead with terminating the Hurontario-Main LRT at Shopper’s World. And London is even less politically relevant than Brampton.

You clearly have never been to London. To turn a street such as Richmond into 2 lanes is about as smart as making the 401 a 2 lane undivided road.

However, I feel that this may turn into a federal election promise.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

My position is that London is completely entitled to ask for a government hand-out.

I'll judge provincial/federal governments for giving in, but I don't see why it would be any different than Scarborough, Brampton or York Region situations.

 

[kEiThZ]

You clearly have never been to London.

Wife's from there. I'm there often enough. And we've talked about retiring there, after my military career. Which is exactly why their pigheadedness on this transit file is disappointing to me. If they can the BRT, I'd rule them out from consideration for me at least. I want to live in a transit friendly city. And increasingly, I think investment and livability are correlated. So I think employment opportunities will be threatened by transit underinvestment too.

To turn a street such as Richmond into 2 lanes is about as smart as making the 401 a 2 lane undivided road.

You can either have traffic running through the downtown core or transit. Both are not possible without grade separation. Simple as that. So either they build something on Richmond and move N/S traffic to Adelaide and Wharncliffe/Western or they build an elevated or tunneled line for most of Richmond. At $200-300M/km, no higher level of government is interested in paying for that. And since most Londoners think transit is for the poor and students, they aren't showing any interest in paying for it through property taxes either.

However, I feel that this may turn into a federal election promise.

It's hilarious how much sway Londoners think they have with a whopping 4 seats in play, of which the Liberals have only 2 and might arguably have a tough time gaining more.

London is not getting more. At best, you'll now get some diamond lanes and nice bus shelters. That'll be enough for ribbon cuttings for all politicians come election time. And in 5-10 years, you'll all be wistfully reminiscing on what could have been while stuck in traffic.

My position is that London is completely entitled to ask for a government hand-out.

I'll judge provincial/federal governments for giving in, but I don't see why it would be any different than Scarborough, Brampton or York Region situations.

They can ask for personal jetpacks if they want. Nobody gives a shit about a 4-5 seats (of which realistically fewer are in play, over transit policy). It's the same reason Brampton's request is being ignored. And more to the point, populations in Brampton and London won't reward parties that build transit. They might even penalize parties that do build something. Just imagine LRT with lots of left turn restrictions and what that might do to car-centric voters in London or Brampton, even if the number of lanes were left the same.

Scarborough has several seats in play, and possibly extended impact politically, into Pickering and Markham. York region is the same with Yonge North. And voters there will reward parties that build the subway and penalize those who don't. That's the only reason why those subway extensions are being entertained. London and Brampton will not even have half that influence in our lifetimes.

 

[44 North]

Kind of off topic but that is no longer the case.

The McCormick factory site is being cleaned up and it will be demolished soon for new development.

The old Kellog plant is now Canada's largest indoor 'adventure park', plus it has virtual reality, arcades, ropes and all the like. There's also a brewery there and the Children's museum is moving in next year.

A few pics from inside during a visit

More info if interested https://thefactorylondon.ca/

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RT, either BRT or LRT would be probably the most beneficial to Dundas East than anywhere else in the city in my opinion.

Oh yeah we went to the Factory. Oh man so awesome. Just did the trampoline part, but it blows any Skyzone out of the water. So mammoth, hopping around it's like a dream being in there.

 

[micheal_can]

Wife's from there. I'm there often enough. And we've talked about retiring there, after my military career. Which is exactly why their pigheadedness on this transit file is disappointing to me. If they can the BRT, I'd rule them out from consideration for me at least. I want to live in a transit friendly city. And increasingly, I think investment and livability are correlated. So I think employment opportunities will be threatened by transit underinvestment too.

You can either have traffic running through the downtown core or transit. Both are not possible without grade separation. Simple as that. So either they build something on Richmond and move N/S traffic to Adelaide and Wharncliffe/Western or they build an elevated or tunneled line for most of Richmond. At $200-300M/km, no higher level of government is interested in paying for that. And since most Londoners think transit is for the poor and students, they aren't showing any interest in paying for it through property taxes either.

It's hilarious how much sway Londoners think they have with a whopping 4 seats in play, of which the Liberals have only 2 and might arguably have a tough time gaining more.

London is not getting more. At best, you'll now get some diamond lanes and nice bus shelters. That'll be enough for ribbon cuttings for all politicians come election time. And in 5-10 years, you'll all be wistfully reminiscing on what could have been while stuck in traffic.

They can ask for personal jetpacks if they want. Nobody gives a shit about a 4-5 seats (of which realistically fewer are in play, over transit policy). It's the same reason Brampton's request is being ignored. And more to the point, populations in Brampton and London won't reward parties that build transit. They might even penalize parties that do build something. Just imagine LRT with lots of left turn restrictions and what that might do to car-centric voters in London or Brampton, even if the number of lanes were left the same.

Scarborough has several seats in play, and possibly extended impact politically, into Pickering and Markham. York region is the same with Yonge North. And voters there will reward parties that build the subway and penalize those who don't. That's the only reason why those subway extensions are being entertained. London and Brampton will not even have half that influence in our lifetimes.

I am ex military and I headed to Northern ON. I lived in London for a few years and still have family there.

Richmond north of Oxford is the major road into the city from not just the northern part of the city, but for the rural area as well. In fact it is still Highway 4. So, lets remove a lane on each side of the DVP. That is in essence what you are suggesting. Adelaide is too far to the east, and Warncliffe is too far to the west. How do you get people from Richmond and Oxford to either of those streets?

If London goes BRT, then an LRT tunnel could be in the future. 2 or 3 seats isn't much, but if the polls are close, those seats could mean the difference between a majority and a minority government.

One thing missing in your long rant is Toronto. Toronto is causing people to buy property in London and commute. Regardless if HSR is built, there is a chance that GO train will one day stop at London. That will push the province, and possibly the feds too to give money.

I think BRT(light) will happen. LRT is likely at least 10-15 year away. Regardless, south of Oxford, the LRT should be in a tunnel.

 

[ssiguy2]

The idea of a one lane Richmond was so absurd that it was a no-go from the beginning. This is not a primary road from downtown to UWO/North London/Masonville and northern rural commuters but rather the ONLY road. This backed up by the fact that right at the crucial intersection of terminally back-up Oxford {the city's ONLY total east/west street north of downtown, is crossed by a regularly used CN rail corridor. The traffic on Richmond with one lane waiting for a slow moving train would back up for km within minutes. People saying that with lanes taken away, people will just use another route but there are no other routes. South of Oxford towards downtown, Richmond would have been one lane for 2 blocks right before the rail crossing and Oxford intersection which would have created traffic back-up all the way to downtown all day and a nightmare in rush hour.

 

[Haljackey]

I totally agree with the analogy that we only have ourselves to blame.

If we don't have a vision or a agreed upon plan - then of course we're not going to get any dollars from the feds or province to do anything.

London missed out on getting freeways, and now we're going to miss out with rapid transit.

It seems only an underground LRT line would work now like in downtown Edmonton. But that's way too visionary / disruptive / expensive for anyone to comprehend.

 

[muller877]

London can have all the tunnels they want. If they pay for them. Let’s be clear here. That’s what all this is about. They want the province and the feds to pay hundreds of millions for a tunnel. And they are willing to hold themselves hostage to traffic till that happens. I say, Queen’s Park and Ottawa should call their bluff. 4 seats in London are not worth hundreds of millions. That money could win more seats on just about any transit project in the GTA.

To be clear there is a underground river crossing Richmond. The civil engineers knew about it but the urban planners ignored their concerns when they first thought of tunneling.

It is cost prohibitive and a flood risk to try and move this underground river. Money solves everything but sometimes Mother Nature will win in the long run.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think BRT(light) will happen.

Like I said, all you’re going to get are curbside bus lanes. I agree with you on that.

LRT is likely at least 10-15 year away.

With a tunnel? Not even close. You’re talking about building something like Toronto’s Eglinton or Ottawa’s Confederation Line. Look up how long those will take from planning to delivery. And those projects actually had substantial federal and provincial support. Something not assured for a London subway as of now.

It seems only an underground LRT line would work now like in downtown Edmonton. But that's way too visionary / disruptive / expensive for anyone to comprehend.

I’ve always been curious how the folks who say a single lane Richmond is too much to bear would put up with at least a half decade shut down of Richmond for a tunneled LRT.

It is cost prohibitive and a flood risk to try and move this underground river.

Indeed. Yet, they aren’t willing to give up road space or fund more. So....

One thing missing in your long rant is Toronto. Toronto is causing people to buy property in London and commute. Regardless if HSR is built, there is a chance that GO train will one day stop at London. That will push the province, and possibly the feds too to give money.

Funding for long haul does not translate to support for local transit. Otherwise, every 905 burb with a GO stop would have LRTs.

And “one day” is actually many days away. Right now GO RER is precarious. So if we can’t get regular go service to Kitchener by 2025, London is definitely a long ways off. And a rail commute only becomes practical with high speed rail. I doubt most people would think a 2.5 hr GO train ride practical. So most of those people will be driving. And we’ll get to see how cost effective they think that is, once the carbon tax really gets into gear and gas costs $2/L in 2025.

 

[micheal_can]

To be clear there is a underground river crossing Richmond. The civil engineers knew about it but the urban planners ignored their concerns when they first thought of tunneling.

It is cost prohibitive and a flood risk to try and move this underground river. Money solves everything but sometimes Mother Nature will win in the long run.

Like I said, all you’re going to get are curbside bus lanes. I agree with you on that.

Snip

Funding for long haul does not translate to support for local transit. Otherwise, every 905 burb with a GO stop would have LRTs.

And “one day” is actually many days away. Right now GO RER is precarious. So if we can’t get regular go service to Kitchener by 2025, London is definitely a long ways off. And a rail commute only becomes practical with high speed rail. I doubt most people would think a 2.5 hr GO train ride practical. So most of those people will be driving. And we’ll get to see how cost effective they think that is, once the carbon tax really gets into gear and gas costs $2/L in 2025.

Hurontario LRT, Viva, Mississauga Transitway and ION all are "GO stops"

To save millions on a mortgage, people will travel further. So, their 8 hour days become 12-14. Sounds like a regular shift at work to me. Something many people already do.

 

[kEiThZ]

Hurontario LRT, Viva, Mississauga Transitway and ION all are "GO stops"

Sure. But where's the higher order local transit for Barrie, Stouffville, Oshawa, Burlington, Milton? The exceptions don't disprove the rule. The vast majority of communities with GO service are not getting higher order transit. Nor do they need it.

And this is of course, giving way to your red herring, since a GO train to London is on nobody's radar. Show me one serious source that says otherwise.

To save millions on a mortgage, people will travel further. So, their 8 hour days become 12-14. Sounds like a regular shift at work to me. Something many people already do.

The average commute time in Toronto is 34 minutes according to StatsCan:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-commute-times-1.4425517

You vastly overestimate the amount of people who will move that far for a house. Even the province's last population forecast says that the majority of growth will be in the GTA and that Middlesex County will gain ~132 000 residents by 2041, with the GTA gaining ~983 000 residents in the same timeframe.

https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/demographics/projections/

https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/demographics/projections/table13.html

https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/demographics/projections/table10.html

With the Southwest's share of provincial population falling from 12% today to 10.3% in 2041 (see Table A in link above), London will become even less relevant than today.

Let's stick to facts. Not fantasy. This was London's shot. They blew it. And nobody is going to give a shit about London choking on traffic for a long time to come. It's what they voted for. And exactly what they will get.