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Liberal defects to the Conservatives

  • Thread starter Abeja de Almirante
  • Start date
Any party that would not view the economic and industrial centre of the nation with the most diverse population as an "imperative" is simply regionalist.
Toronto is not the industrial centre of the nation. When was the last time you bought a car or any industrially manufactured item produced here in Toronto? The 905 region is far more worthy of that categorization, since our cars, autoparts, etc. are produced there.

By politically imperative I am being realistic. A political party only has so many resources to apply to a campaign, with the same logic to governance if they win. So they look at the country and see where their supporters are, and target those ridings. In addition, ridings that are on the fence are targetted. Those are political imperatives. Trying to elect Liberals in Alberta was never an imperative for Paul Martin for example (even with the huge per cap GDP) because he knew they'd never vote for him.
 
Toronto is not the industrial centre of the nation. When was the last time you bought a car or any industrially manufactured item produced here in Toronto? The 905 region is far more worthy of that categorization, since our cars, autoparts, etc. are produced there.

The 905 is part of the Greater Toronto Area.

If you think Toronto is not important to Canada you're fooling yourself.
 
The 905 is part of the Greater Toronto Area.
Bizorky did not state GTA, he said "Are you suggesting that Toronto is not an imperative for the Conservatives?".

When was the last time the mayors, media or people from the 905 called themselves Torontonians? Are you honestly saying that someone from Beamsville, Bradford, Hamilton, Niagara Falls, Oshawa, St. Catharines or Welland would consider themselves part of Toronto because they have a 905 telephone number?

GTA is a made-up term for selling Ontario to Americans and overseas, much as we used to call it the Golden Horseshoe before we had the easily categorized 905.

Toronto is not the GTA. Toronto is part of the GTA, nothing more. More people in the GTA live outside of Toronto than in it. Of the estimated 5.6 million people that live in the GTA, only 2.4 million of them live inside the city of Toronto.

So when someone says that the Conservatives are ignoring the industrial centre of the nation and in the same breath refers to this as Toronto; they're wrong.
 
Toronto is part of the GTA

So when someone says that the Conservatives are ignoring the industrial centre of the nation and in the same breath refers to this as Toronto; they're wrong.

if toronto is part of the GTA, isn't the GTA part of toronto?

the very reason why the GTA thrives is because its proximity to toronto. the reason why the GTA expanded soo much is because the borders of toronto could not house all the people.
 
Bizorky did not state GTA, he said "Are you suggesting that Toronto is not an imperative for the Conservatives?".

When was the last time the mayors, media or people from the 905 called themselves Torontonians? Are you honestly saying that someone from Beamsville, Bradford, Hamilton, Niagara Falls, Oshawa, St. Catharines or Welland would consider themselves part of Toronto because they have a 905 telephone number?

GTA is a made-up term for selling Ontario to Americans and overseas, much as we used to call it the Golden Horseshoe before we had the easily categorized 905.

Toronto is not the GTA. Toronto is part of the GTA, nothing more. More people in the GTA live outside of Toronto than in it. Of the estimated 5.6 million people that live in the GTA, only 2.4 million of them live inside the city of Toronto.

So when someone says that the Conservatives are ignoring the industrial centre of the nation and in the same breath refers to this as Toronto; they're wrong.

It's the Greater Toronto Area. I find it hard to believe you're trying to portray the City of Toronto as nothing more than an inconsequential municipality in the GTA.

And "only 2.4 million" is laughable...that's a huge percentage of the GTA and it's among the biggest cities in North America.
 
No, what I am trying to do, albeit apparently unsuccessfully, is to demonstrate firstly that Toronto itself is not the industrial centre of the country as others here have claimed. The car plants, manufacturing facilities, etc. in the 905 region are successful due to, amongst other reasons, their geographic proximity to the USA border and market. The car factories in Alliston, Cambridge, Woodstock, Oshawa, etc. do not benefit greatly from their being in the same economic GTA soup as Toronto.

Name me one product that is made in Toronto. For that, I can name dozens made in Mississauga, Vaughan, Hamilton. Toronto may very well be the economic engine of the country due to its large % of company HQs, and is certainly the financial and legal centre due to its huge number of lawyers, consultants and accountants, but it is not the industrial centre as was claimed in this thread. That's the point I'm trying to, with massive failure unfortunately, convey.
the very reason why the GTA thrives is because its proximity to toronto. the reason why the GTA expanded soo much is because the borders of toronto could not house all the people.
I think this applied once when we all drived to the city from the 'burbs, but today a lot of folks live and work in the GTA; they may drive for hours on the 401 to get from Whitby to their office in Mississauga, but they're not going into the city of Toronto. There are plenty of jobs outside of the city, and the 'burbs are not Toronto's bedroom any longer.
 
Dude what are you smoking? There are huge industrial parks in Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke producing all kinds of goods including car parts.
 
And these parks represent the industrial centre of the nation? I'm not saying Torontonians don't make anything, I'm only challenging the previous person's post that Toronto was the industrial centre of Canada.

Yes, they represent part of it. When people talk about Toronto being an industrial centre, they're referring to the GTA.

The car factories in Alliston, Cambridge, Woodstock, Oshawa, etc. do not benefit greatly from their being in the same economic GTA soup as Toronto.

They don't??


Toronto may very well be the economic engine of the country due to its large % of company HQs, and is certainly the financial and legal centre due to its huge number of lawyers, consultants and accountants, but it is not the industrial centre as was claimed in this thread.

That's pretty simplistic. It isn't the centre for all these things simply because it has a large number of lawyers, consultants and accountants.

In any case, you seem to be downplaying the importance of Toronto to the Conservatives and are trying to justify them ignoring the city. Common sense would dictate that if they want to form a majority government and serve the needs of all Canadians, they can't just ignore the country's economic engine and it's needs.
 
There are huge industrial parks in Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke producing all kinds of goods including car parts.
And these parks represent the industrial centre of the nation? I'm not saying Torontonians don't make anything, I'm only challenging the previous person's post that Toronto was the industrial centre of Canada.
 
From the Globe:

Tory MPs riled by Harper's outsiders
'This is shocking. It's just unbelievable. ... We campaigned against this kind of stuff'
JEFF SALLOT AND BILL CURRY

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

OTTAWA — Members of the Conservative caucus squirmed in public and seethed in private yesterday, trying to come to grips with Prime Minister Stephen Harper's two controversial cabinet appointments.

"This looks like expediency, even hypocrisy," a veteran Conservative MP from Western Canada said of the appointments of David Emerson, who was elected last month as a Liberal, and Conservative campaign co-chairman Michael Fortier, who didn't run but will get a Senate appointment.

"This is shocking. It's just unbelievable. Who was Stephen talking to? We campaigned against this kind of stuff," the MP said.

A rookie MP said: "I'm not sure how I'm going to explain these appointments to my constituents. It's bewildering."

The MPs did not want to be identified because of caucus secrecy, but wanted it known that other Conservatives also question the political wisdom of the appointments.

The caucus meeting was described as unusually quiet, with Mr. Harper doing most of the talking. "Everybody was in shock," the western MP said.

Mr. Harper reportedly explained at length why Mr. Emerson, a Vancouver MP, and Mr. Fortier, a Montreal lawyer, are needed. The Conservatives failed to win seats in either city on Jan. 23. Mr. Harper made Mr. Emerson Minister of International Trade. Mr. Fortier is Public Works Minister, and will sit in the Senate and run in the next general election, Mr. Harper said.

The appointments set off a flash fire of criticism on radio talk shows and conservative-oriented Internet blogs, with many people noting that Mr. Harper had promised Senate elections. Dozens of Conservative MPs in the last House supported a NDP bill that would have required defectors to seek a new mandate in a by-election.

The Liberal riding association in Mr. Emerson's Vancouver Kingsway constituency asked him yesterday to return nearly $100,000 he received to fight the recent election.

"You would not have received those funds . . . if you ran as a Conservative," association president Ivan Curman said in a letter to Mr. Emerson first obtained yesterday by CTV News.

"Countless people donated money to support the election of a Liberal candidate in our riding. Some gave what little amounts they could afford to support the election of a Liberal MP," Mr. Curman said.

The local riding association transferred $96,755 to Mr. Emerson's campaign, he said.

"That money was spent to elect you as a Liberal, not as a Conservative," he reminded Mr. Emerson.

He said that Mr. Emerson can put the ideals of honour and integrity in politics -- that he spoke of often in the campaign -- into action by returning the money, resigning and running in a by-election.

"Let the voters have the opportunity to choose a Liberal to represent them as they did only two short weeks ago."

He said that Mr. Emerson benefited from countless hours spent on his campaign by 300 volunteers.

"Your actions have made their gifts of time meaningless."

One radio talk-show caller said he was almost speechless at what he called a "brazen display of anti-democratic behaviour.

"I mean, I've still got newspapers in my recycling box that have David Emerson slamming the Conservatives," he told CKNW host Bill Good.

Most Conservatives were furious last year when Belinda Stronach moved to the Liberals and took a cabinet job.

Saskatchewan Conservative MP Maurice Vellacott, who said Ms. Stronach was prostituting herself, described Mr. Emerson carefully yesterday.

"I understand the pragmatism of it," Mr. Vellacott said. "But to be honest, I feel a bit uneasy about it."

Alberta MP Myron Thompson also said Mr. Emerson's appointment caught him by surprise. "When I get back home, I'll probably get an earful."

Mr. Thompson said he still believes MPs who cross the floor should face their voters, but this is between Mr. Emerson and his constituents.

As to Mr. Fortier's appointment to the Senate, Mr. Thompson said, "The Prime Minister we have right now, I trust him so much, whatever he decides, I support him 100 per cent."

Several of the 39 Tories who supported the anti-switching bill, including Lynne Yelich, Ken Epp, Pierre Poilievre and Brian Jean, made it clear they did not want to discuss Mr. Emerson's move yesterday.

"You're not going to pin me down on that," Mr. Epp said.

Mr. Jean gave the comment that most of his colleagues were making.

"I think David's going to be a great addition to our team and we need somebody to represent Vancouver," he said.

Ontario Tory MP Helena Guergis was set to issue a press release yesterday morning reaffirming her support for the anti-crossing legislation.

However, Mr. Harper made her parliamentary secretary to Mr. Emerson yesterday afternoon, and the press release was not issued.

Journalists were allowed to cover Mr. Harper's opening remarks to the caucus meeting. He joked about the "power of appointment" and went on to welcome Mr. Emerson and Mr. Fortier to the caucus. "Their presence here is the sign of my determination to make sure we have the strongest national government possible."

Earlier, Mr. Fortier said he would not seek a seat in the House before the next general election even if there is a Montreal vacancy. "My job is to focus on Public Works."

Mr. Fortier also said it never occurred to him to run in the last election. "I didn't run in the election because I didn't want to run in the election. I had a great career, five young kids, and so it wasn't the right situation for me to run when the election came around. That's just the simple truth."

In the end, he said, he decided to take a cabinet post "because the Prime Minister phoned me and there was this gaping hole in the Montreal area."

The fact that the minister of Public Works is not a member of Parliament is not a perfect situation, Mr. Fortier said.

With reports from Rod Mickleburgh, Gloria Galloway, Campbell Clark and Canadian Press
_________________________________________________

Mr. Thompson said he still believes MPs who cross the floor should face their voters, but this is between Mr. Emerson and his constituents.

That is such BS from Myron Thompson - his party leader spent the last 2 months extoling the virtue of ethics is directly involved in this act.

Several of the 39 Tories who supported the anti-switching bill, including Lynne Yelich, Ken Epp, Pierre Poilievre and Brian Jean, made it clear they did not want to discuss Mr. Emerson's move yesterday.

"You're not going to pin me down on that," Mr. Epp said.

Mr. Jean gave the comment that most of his colleagues were making.

"I think David's going to be a great addition to our team and we need somebody to represent Vancouver," he said.

Ontario Tory MP Helena Guergis was set to issue a press release yesterday morning reaffirming her support for the anti-crossing legislation.

However, Mr. Harper made her parliamentary secretary to Mr. Emerson yesterday afternoon, and the press release was not issued.

Interesting perspectives now that they are on the other side of the bench.

AoD
 
From Canada.com (National Post)

PM: criticism 'superficial' track
Harper defends Emerson's appointment in interview

Peter O'Neil, CanWest News Service
Published: Wednesday, February 08, 2006

OTTAWA - Stephen Harper, in his first interview since becoming Prime Minister, said yesterday he anticipated the "superficial" criticism of his decision to convince former Liberal Cabinet minister David Emerson to cross the floor to join his Cabinet.

While Mr. Emerson's defection was praised in some quarters, many Canadians voiced outrage and media commentators described the floor-crossing as a betrayal of grassroots voters and a reflection of "dirty" politics.

"I expected some of the superficial criticism I've seen," Mr. Harper told The Vancouver Sun in an interview. "But I think once people sit back and reflect, they'll understand that this is in the best interests of not just British Columbia but frankly of good government."

Mr. Harper referred to his statements on Monday, when he said he recruited Mr. Emerson to Cabinet to give Vancouver -- which didn't elect a Tory MP in five city ridings -- a voice in Cabinet.

He used the same rationale to explain why he appointed Tory national campaign co-chairman Michael Fortier, a Montreal businessman, to the Senate and as Minister of Public Works. Montreal, like Vancouver, did not elect a government MP. "I think I was clear what I did and why I did it," Mr. Harper said yesterday.

His two unexpected appointments drew strong criticism in much of the national media coverage yesterday, though the Emerson recruitment was praised by B.C. Premier Gordon Campbell.

The Emerson appointment was also endorsed in editorials by the province's two largest-circulation daily newspapers.

Alberta MP Myron Thompson said yesterday he supports his leader, but he acknowledged he doesn't personally support the idea that MPs should cross the floor or that senators should be appointed without getting elected.

"When I get home I'll probably get an earfuli from constituents," Mr. Thompson said.

B.C. Tory MP James Moore, who was expected to get a Cabinet post before Mr. Emerson's move to the Conservatives, was asked if he would apply the same words to the new International Trade Minister as he did to defector Belinda Stronach.

Mr. Moore called Ms. Stronach the "poster child for hypocrisy" after she left the Tories to become a Liberal minister last May and help Paul Martin survive a non-confidence vote.

"There are two kinds of people in public life. People of principle and people like Belinda Stronach," Mr. Moore said then.

Mr. Moore, while arguing yesterday that the two situations are "very different" because Ms. Stronach approached the Liberals whereas Mr. Harper approached Mr. Emerson, refused to elaborate when pressed by reporters.

"Look, David Emerson is, as I said, a talented British Columbian who is going to do good things for the province," Mr. Moore said repeatedly.

Mr. Harper also said yesterday he has already sought and received Mr. Emerson's advice on -- and support for -- the new Tory government's decision yesterday to cancel the planned Liberal privatization of a Crown corporation in northwestern British Columbia.

Former Liberal transport minister Jean Lapierre sought unsuccessfully just before the election campaign to obtain approval to negotiate the sale of Ridley Terminals to two small Ontario firms for a fraction of the $250-million it cost to build in the early 1980s.

The sale was opposed by B.C. and Alberta resource firms who feared they would lose inexpensive and easy access to the coal terminal to ship their products to booming Asian markets.

Mr. Emerson, in one of his last acts as a Liberal minister, convinced Cabinet to delay approval of the negotiations because of widespread opposition in Western Canada.

Mr. Harper said he decided during the campaign the sale was a bad idea after meeting in Prince Rupert, B.C., with Ridley management and local business leaders.

"I was convinced that it was the correct decision," Mr. Harper said yesterday.

"Conversations I had, frankly, with Minister Emerson and others, subsequently, convinced me it was the correct decision.

"So we just decided to go ahead and implement it. I think this is in the best interests of northern British Columbia in particular, but also the Canadian economy."

© National Post 2006

AoD
 
Ontario Tory MP Helena Guergis was set to issue a press release yesterday morning reaffirming her support for the anti-crossing legislation.

However, Mr. Harper made her parliamentary secretary to Mr. Emerson yesterday afternoon, and the press release was not issued.

I found this to be the funniest part of the Globe story.
 
This is a silly argument - 905 vs 416 economy thing. The two are very econimically intertwined and so this argument is probably not terribly meaningful. For what it is worth, there is truth to the statement that there is not much (at least as there once was) made/built in the 416 but seeing as our economy is increasingly oriented toward services this probably is not the best proxy for economic power anyway. That said, with the exception of the financial services/capital markets sector, Toronto has been steadily losing economic power to the 905 over the last few decades. Hard to argue that.
From the Conservatives perspective/election perspective - we need to separate having representation from the people of a jurisdiction and representation of the companies in that jurisdiction. TD bank is not worried that there are no conservatives in the 416 because a) they are a national (global) company so they are everywhere anyways and b) trust me they have access to the levers of power anyway. As for the electorate, the Conservatives they can ignore the 416 because there is no hope of votes for them (thus it is big a waste of energy as my last date request I emailed the Jessica Alba fan site). I think Alberta is going to get the shaft too, because there is no hope of them leaving and going elsewhere (sort of like how my GF treats me) - no the people in the sweet spot are the swing voters of the 905 who might (just maybe) switch thier votes (that would be the new co-op intern on the 29th floor - so hot).
 
My mistake indeed.

That being said, it doesn't change the validity of the argument that the artificial division between 416 and 905 regarding industrial production as an economic unit is false. There is a reason why plants are located where they are - with Toronto being the centre of an urban agglomeration offering capital, services, human resources transportation, etc. The pattern of manufacturing capacity located in the periphery is fairly consistent with the concentric model of urban development - to which political boundaries are relatively irrelevelant. As to the comment that the GTA is a makeup term with no rationale behind the region - it isn't - I will be happy to entertain alternate ideas as to why such a massive amount of industrial and economic capacity just "chanced" to crop up in the region around the urban centre that is Toronto.

The fact remains - the economic region is NOT well represented by the Conservatives.

AoD
 

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