Legacy Streetcar Network Poll

[W. K. Lis]

In addition to the excessive number of closely spaced streetcar (and bus) stops, there is the redundant number of SUNDAY stops to be considered. The SUNDAY stops most likely were put in as a requirement back when the voters passed the referendum to allow Sunday streetcar service. Even on Sunday these days, I have seen streetcar (and bus) drivers ignore the SUNDAY stops, since they are not used to them the rest of the week.

 

[gweed123]

What about using Richmond/Adelaide for some of the streetcars (every 2nd one uses the one-ways, or what have you). Basically use the one-ways in order to increase efficiency, especially during rush hour.

EDIT: Sorry to double up what has already been said, I wrote that last night, but forgot to post it until this morning, haha.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I think that a northward extension of the Bathurst streetcar, replacing a portion of the Bathurst bus route, makes sense so long as both routes could be accommodated (somehow) at St. Clair West Station. I'm not certain how much of an issue Bathurst's grade north of Hillcrest really is given that the St. Clair cars use it daily to come in and out of service, but that's one rationale that been mentioned for why it hasn't happened in the CLRV era. The other rationale has been that Bathurst bus riders benefit from the direct connect to the Bloor - Danforth Line at Bathurst Station. I don't use the route, so I have no way of judging this but, given that there has never been a direct transfer between the Bathurst bus and St. Clair West Station for subway access, I think that it is difficult for anyone to say which option TTC customers would prefer. A trial run, possibly outside of peak periods, might be in order.

Parliament is a good idea as well, but ridership on the current Parliament bus doesn't really justify it at present. Five years from now will be a different matter with Queen's Quay East and the West Don Lands becoming significantly built up. Queen's Quay East cars could utilize Parliament and Cherry in both directions, using either Front or King Streets to complete an on-street loop. The latter providing a direction connection to the King car. A Parliament route, operating from Castle Frank to Union Station, could utilize Front, and Cherry to access the Distillery District and West Don Lands, before heading to Union Station. Streetcars might have a difficult time accessing Castle Frank's bus terminal in mixed traffic though, while the outer edge of Rosedale would likely put up a fight against the perception of constantly squealing streetcar wheels right on their doorstep.

The traffic on Bathurst Street between Bloor Street and St. Clair Avenue is terrible (especially northbound just below St. Clair), even if the streetcars are currently using it deadheading. Don't know if it is the traffic volume (mostly single-occupant of course) or the terrain forces most traffic onto Bathurst Street. Expect complaints that it is the streetcars causing the congestion, even though it is the volume. I think it is the illegally parking vehicles that is the main cause.

 

[Ansem]

Several problems here:
1. King and Queen are pretty separate for most of this stretch - TTC riders want convenient transit going BOTH ways.
2. King and Queen are really far too narrow for ROWs (or RsOW)
3. The trackage on both streets has been rebuilt very recently so moving it is an unnecessary expense.

On might argue that an express service on both Adelaide and Richmond (both are one way) from Spadina to Church could help, though the track on Richmond would need to be put back between Spadina and York. The TTC is planning to redo the existing tracks on both streets in next 2 years.

Only the cars would ne hit with the 1 way restiction,

Streetcars would continue to go both ways

 

[lafard]

I think that a northward extension of the Bathurst streetcar, replacing a portion of the Bathurst bus route, makes sense so long as both routes could be accommodated (somehow) at St. Clair West Station. I'm not certain how much of an issue Bathurst's grade north of Hillcrest really is given that the St. Clair cars use it daily to come in and out of service, but that's one rationale that been mentioned for why it hasn't happened in the CLRV era. The other rationale has been that Bathurst bus riders benefit from the direct connect to the Bloor - Danforth Line at Bathurst Station. I don't use the route, so I have no way of judging this but, given that there has never been a direct transfer between the Bathurst bus and St. Clair West Station for subway access, I think that it is difficult for anyone to say which option TTC customers would prefer. A trial run, possibly outside of peak periods, might be in order.

I live near Bathurst and St Clair, frequent user of the 7 bus and I have a few observations about this one.

For one thing, the Bathurst/St Clair intersection is set up very oddly. Southbound cars have to go to Vaughan road and then back over to Bathurst. Despite having one of the few working white-bar priority signals in the city this is a ponderous operation at best.

If you go to Bathurst Station and watch a 511 streetcar arrive you notice that maybe only 10% of the passengers actually cross to catch the 7-bus. The benefits of through-routing are minimal. There are a lot of people that get on/off at St Clair, but the same is true at every concession intersection along Bathurst. The route turns over about three times between Bloor and Steeles and seems to function primarily as a short north-south shuttle for those arriving from an east-west route from the Y or S subways.

There is a "walking transfer" allowed between St Clair West Stn and the 7-bus, and some people do take the 512/90/126 out of the subway, but most of the transferees there seem to be either locals walking in, or coming from the West on the 512. Not a lot of the traffic is coming from the subway. On the other hand, there is a fair bit of N-S through traffic at St Clair. Moreso than at Bloor, anyways.

They did have Bathurst broken up for a while, into a Bathurst Stn to St Clair W stn shuttle and a St C - Steeles shuttle last year while rebuilding the rail overpass down by Dupont, the shuttle was very lightly used and the northern segment really didn't see any change in use.

The reality is
a) there's no benefit to running the 511 up to St Clair W. It's not a major through route connection, the traffic is a bit iffy and I imagine the hill on Bathurst is a deal-breaker. Doubt the TTC really wants to run revenue streetcar service on that hill.
b) IF you did decide to run the 7 to St C W you'd have to set up a short shuttle on the southern bit of the route. Costs money and adds complexity for a route that saw fairly light use last time it was set up last year.
c) You could basicallly send the 7 as it is now but send it looping through St Clair W. However, the transfer traffic is really not heavy enough to bother.

For various reasons, the way it is now makes sense.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Of course there is the dream of a return of a modified 507 LONG BRANCH, but one that runs from LONG BRANCH (Brown's Line) to DUNDAS WEST STATION via RONCESVALLES (weekends and evenings?). The current 501/504 shuttle bus on weekends could be used as a test, but to see a 507 (aka 501/504) operating using streetcars after the construction on Roncesvalles is finished, who knows.

 

[reaperexpress]

Of course there is the dream of a return of a modified 507 LONG BRANCH, but one that runs from LONG BRANCH (Brown's Line) to DUNDAS WEST STATION via RONCESVALLES (weekends and evenings?). The current 501/504 shuttle bus on weekends could be used as a test, but to see a 507 (aka 501/504) operating using streetcars after the construction on Roncesvalles is finished, who knows.

I took the 501/504 from Long Branch to Dundas West, and I was surprised to see that very few people got off at Roncesvales to continue along Queen. I think that people will find the route quite useful if it becomes a regular route. I wonder if the TTC was watching demand patterns during the reroute?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I like the idea of reviving service on Richmond and Adelaide, either as and express pair or one way diversions of the king/queen cars.

However how about linking King and Queen with a loop route. From the Queen/King/Roncesvalles/Queensway intersection in the west to where King meets Queen in the east cars run in a loop. The outer routes still go into the core but the main service of this area would be the loop.

 

[archanfel]

If you converted King and Queen to one-way operation, wouldn't the streetcar ROW need to be rebuilt to run along the side of the road?

Personally, I'm a fan of super-high signal priority on the queen streetcar with almost all left turns restricted on queen. I would also add Bathurst and Parliament as additional north-south streetcars.

I don't think so. The right most lane would be the parking lane and slow lane during peak hour. The second lane would be for street cars and slower traffic (but not turning traffic since they would be in the right most lane). The third and forth lane would be for faster traffic. I am not sure whether it would hurt businesses on one side of the street though.

 

[Electrify]

What I would do:

For standard streetcar routes (non-articulated, mixed traffic): Replace with articulated buses. Buses could not only use right turn lanes to bypass traffic, but would also get advanced signal priority. So for example, traffic is backed up at a red light, so the bus would use the right turn lane (or to be more specific, the right lane approaching a cross-street where cars are not allowed to park or stop) to bypass traffic and get to the stop. After unloading/loading passengers, assuming the light was still red, an advanced traffic signal would turn green for buses and the bus could accelerate back into the through lane without worrying about merging into traffic.

St. Clair and Spadina: Would turn them into full LRT lines. This includes rapid boarding, full traffic priorities (protected crossings), and spacing out stops to that of our subway network (500m to 1000m).

Queen: Turn it into a modern tram line. This includes Transit City stop spacing (400m), and rapid boarding.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Can't think of a problem with articulated buses. So I'll show you:

[video=youtube;8kMkYhc4F2g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kMkYhc4F2g[/video]

 

[GraphicMatt]

Artic buses might be a good option for some suburban BRTish routes but they're a non-starter for downtown routes. They're not going to be able to make the turns and they'd require a lot of room to pull over into the right lane (or else they'd block both lanes).

I actually think streetcars not pulling into the right lane at stops works in everyone's best interest, honestly. It makes their behaviour predictable.

 

[nfitz]

For standard streetcar routes (non-articulated, mixed traffic): Replace with articulated buses.

Wouldn't the biggest problem with articulated buses be that they are so small?

Currently the 15-m long CLRVs don't have enough capacity; so we are replacing with them with 30-m long Flexity units.

I'd think that replacing 15-m long CLRVs with 18-m long articulated buses, isn't going to add much (if any) capacity, and won't solve the biggest problems out there.

You'd also have problems running them in the current LRT tunnels into the stations, and along Bay. Those tunnels are vey narrow and designed for guided vehicles. I can see articulated buses getting stuck.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Articulated buses are far from a non-starter for downtown Toronto. Ottawa uses lots of them on streets just as narrow as Toronto's. Turns are not a problem (hint: they bend in the middle). In some cases articulated buses have a tighter turning radius than regular buses. The length of clear curb need for a stop is an issue, though - one extra parking spot lost. Problems with them folding up in snowstorms are very rare and much overplayed.

 

[reaperexpress]

Ottawa is having massive issues with its articulated buses, because they take up lots of space in their narrow streets. The main issue is that there's not enough space at the downtown stops for the huge number of buses scheduled to stop at them.

Here is what it looks like looking east on Slater st at rush hour. Note the Alexander-Dennis Enviro 500 that is part of an experiment with double-decker buses.