Legacy Streetcar Network Poll

[W. K. Lis]

Ottawa is having massive issues with its articulated buses, because they take up lots of space in their narrow streets. The main issue is that there's not enough space at the downtown stops for the huge number of buses scheduled to stop at them.

Here is what it looks like looking east on Slater st at rush hour. Note the Alexander-Dennis Enviro 500 that is part of an experiment with double-decker buses.

But Rob Ford is an all wise and all knowing transit expert who knows that buses are a better solution than streetcars, and knows exactly what is the best for us peasants who dare stoop to to not use the automobile to get around... not.

 

[doady]

But Rob Ford is an all wise and all knowing transit expert who knows that buses are a better solution than streetcars, and knows exactly what is the best for us peasants who dare stoop to to not use the automobile to get around... not.

No offense, I don't support Rob Ford, and I don't support his proposal to get rid of the streetcars at all, but the Ottawa transitway buses carry far FAR more riders than any single streetcar line in Toronto. The Ottawa transitway corridor carries almost as much riders as ALL the TTC streetcar lines combined. Those buses aren't carrying 50,000 riders per weekday like the Queen streetcar, they're carrying 240,000 riders per weekday. None of the TTC streetcar lines even come close that ridership and yet they already have so much problems...

I don't want to legitimize Rob Ford's anti-streetcar stance, but still, let's keep things in perspective...

 

[nfitz]

No offense, I don't support Rob Ford, and I don't support his proposal to get rid of the streetcars at all, but the Ottawa transitway buses carry far FAR more riders than any single streetcar line in Toronto. The Ottawa transitway corridor carries almost as much riders as ALL the TTC streetcar lines combined. Those buses aren't carrying 50,000 riders per weekday like the Queen streetcar, they're carrying 240,000 riders per weekday. None of the TTC streetcar lines even come close that ridership and yet they already have so much problems...

They also operate primarily in a grade-separated right-of-way, except for a few blocks through downtown where several routes converge and operate in bus-only lanes that are actually enforced. There is no comparable TTC streetcar route ... and there is no single Ottawa bus route that carries that load. Ottawa is also planning on replacing these buses with the streetcars Toronto is purchasing (perhaps the very same ones if Ford gets his way ...).

 

[doady]

They also operate primarily in a grade-separated right-of-way, except for a few blocks through downtown where several routes converge and operate in bus-only lanes that are actually enforced. There is no comparable TTC streetcar route ... and there is no single Ottawa bus route that carries that load.

The transitway routes all serve the same trunk corridor and corridor is pictured above. It's not like the streetcar routes where each route serves a different corridor and hardly overlap.

 

[nfitz]

The transitway routes all serve the same trunk corridor and corridor is pictured above. It's not like the streetcar routes where each route serves a different corridor and hardly overlap.

The trunk corridor shown is part of the few blocks shown. I'm quite familiar with it ... lived in Ottawa in the 1980s, and used to commute on it to downtown to work. Doesn't look like a typical rush-hour though ... there's more to the story.

 

[taal]

The transitway routes all serve the same trunk corridor and corridor is pictured above. It's not like the streetcar routes where each route serves a different corridor and hardly overlap.

Yea a lot of cities have this issue ... Toronto, completed avoids this for the most part.
The worst part of the city is Yonge street north of Finch! But most routes here are dedicated, we don't have the 20+ bus routes sharing one segment and then branching out. To be accurate some street suffer this a little ... Eglinton / Yonge (as mentioned earlier) ...

 

[gweed123]

They also operate primarily in a grade-separated right-of-way, except for a few blocks through downtown where several routes converge and operate in bus-only lanes that are actually enforced. There is no comparable TTC streetcar route ... and there is no single Ottawa bus route that carries that load. Ottawa is also planning on replacing these buses with the streetcars Toronto is purchasing (perhaps the very same ones if Ford gets his way ...).

But when you have 4 different routes overlapping on 1 section of curbside lane through downtown, the capacity of the grade-separated sections leading away from downtown is irrelevant. The capacity of the system is determined by the segment through the downtown core. The fact still is that it's two lanes of traffic carrying almost 5x as many people per day as two lanes of traffic on Queen.

 

[gweed123]

The trunk corridor shown is part of the few blocks shown. I'm quite familiar with it ... lived in Ottawa in the 1980s, and used to commute on it to downtown to work. Doesn't look like a typical rush-hour though ... there's more to the story.

I would agree with that, there must be an accident further up. This picture was also taken along Slater just before Bay, which is the 'lead-up' to downtown, so buses may be queued there for the start of the downtown exodus. Or maybe both.

 

[Electrify]

Ottawa is having massive issues with its articulated buses, because they take up lots of space in their narrow streets. The main issue is that there's not enough space at the downtown stops for the huge number of buses scheduled to stop at them.

Here is what it looks like looking east on Slater st at rush hour. Note the Alexander-Dennis Enviro 500 that is part of an experiment with double-decker buses.

Yes, because streetcars NEVER bunch up...

 

[W. K. Lis]

Yes, because streetcars NEVER bunch up...

Neither do heavy rail subway? Or GO trains? Or VIA trains? Or airplanes?

 

[Jonny5]

Neither do heavy rail subway? Or GO trains? Or VIA trains? Or airplanes?

If we only had had the foresight to fit a runway in the Nathan Phillips Square redesign.

 

[spaced]

Other:
I love our streetcars but there is so many ways they can be more efficient. I would like to see more 'islands' (not sure what the technical name is) made for waiting--like at queen/spadina (east)for the queen car and college and spadina for the college.
The priority lights infuriate me the most though. Not the idea of them but how they're used. For instance if a SC is approaching an intersection but the stop is before the lights the priority still hold the light often just turning red when the SC has just loaded (!!!--arg!). This not only slows down the SC that it was suppose to help but also stops 3 other directions of traffic including buses or SC's on the perpendicular streets. The only benefit to using this system is for left turning cars facing the SC that is loading.
There's plenty of other small elements that can make the legacy network better too such as bump-outs (a la roncy) (but NOT at main intersections as Roncy/King/Queen/Queensway!). Overall there is plenty of small design flaws spread out over the system that slows all traffic down.

 

[doady]

Other:
I love our streetcars but there is so many ways they can be more efficient. I would like to see more 'islands' (not sure what the technical name is) made for waiting--like at queen/spadina (east)for the queen car and college and spadina for the college.
The priority lights infuriate me the most though. Not the idea of them but how they're used. For instance if a SC is approaching an intersection but the stop is before the lights the priority still hold the light often just turning red when the SC has just loaded (!!!--arg!). This not only slows down the SC that it was suppose to help but also stops 3 other directions of traffic including buses or SC's on the perpendicular streets. The only benefit to using this system is for left turning cars facing the SC that is loading.

With signal priority, the stops are supposed to be on the FAR SIDE of the intersection. If they're not then that is a huge and inexcusable flaw in the design of the St Clair ROW... the streetcar is supposed to clear the intersection before stopping to let passengers on and off. That is how signal priority is supposed to work.

 

[Dilla]

With signal priority, the stops are supposed to be on the FAR SIDE of the intersection. If they're not then that is a huge and inexcusable flaw in the design of the St Clair ROW... the streetcar is supposed to clear the intersection before stopping to let passengers on and off. That is how signal priority is supposed to work.

But then, we'd have no left turn lanes for cars...sigh...

 

[reaperexpress]

People seem to be wondering about the circumstances of the picture I posted. It was taken just beyond the Slater and Bay bus stop during the afternoon rush hour on May 19 2010 (I think it was near the beginning of rush hour). I stayed in Ottawa for a few days at the Travelodge just west of Bay. My window looked out onto Slater, and this kind of view was fairly typical during rush hour.

Given my short stay in Ottawa, I am in no position to draw conclusions about the bus traffic. I'm just stating what I observed.

I would agree with that, there must be an accident further up. This picture was also taken along Slater just before Bay, which is the 'lead-up' to downtown, so buses may be queued there for the start of the downtown exodus. Or maybe both.

I'm fairly certain there was no accident. I walked up the street soon after taking this picture and I didn't see anything. My guess is that the buses are probably lined up for a spot at some stop further up.

Yes, because streetcars NEVER bunch up...

I never said that. However, they have higher capacity, so you can have fewer vehicles carrying the same number of people which reduces the likelihood of bunching.