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Lack of meaningful Passenger Rail service outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor

For the car not to be king, Canada would have had to buck a world-wide trend, certainly for countries of our size and population density. No doubt the government was looking to cut costs, but, as Paul mentions, many of the routes that were cut died for lack of ridership but also the route died for lack of revenue. Perhaps if it had been part of the governments policy to not only pay for VIA to run on host property but also pay the hosts to maintain or upgrade their property to passenger standards, some of the services might - might - have remained viable. I understand they paid a bunch of money to CN to improve the corridor and it didn't go well.

The car is only king in North America. Some places, like China it is political, but elsewhere it tends to be because they invested in rail transportation while we were pulling up rails.

Alberta apparently has money to burn. The province or city are quite free to extend their LRT to the VIA station to serve its few-times-per-week service. Where do you imagine the residents of Edmonton want to take the train to on a frequent basis.

The Metro Line is being extended towards it, but not to it. If the train stopped more than 4 times a week (2 times each way) then I could see them doing it.

Since this thread is primarily about inter-city rail, do you suggest rail be extended to airports or airports be built near rail? If you are advocating for a commuter-level service, how do you suppose that would be financially viable even if the service was daily? There are lots of small city airports that only have one or two flights per day. How is rail service, even if an existing line runs right beside the runway, even close to being realistic.

Think of someone going to Banff, having the connection to the Calgary Airport would make sense. Those are the connections I mean. Reality is, it won't be a Via thing.
 
I agree and yet I hope not. To be fair to VIA, they cannot be everywhere, on every route.
I could see Ottawa breaking up VIA. Ownership and responsibility for the Quebec City-Windsor Corridor (Ligne de Québec à Windsor ) route could be given to the Ontario and Quebec provincial governments to run, with a federal/provincial funding deal. When you combine the three of RTM, GOT and ONT intercity/commuter passenger rail networks, the Quebec and Ontario governments have a lot of experience operating such systems.
 
The car is only king in North America. Some places, like China it is political, but elsewhere it tends to be because they invested in rail transportation while we were pulling up rails.
Really now.

Somewhere in China . . .
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Somewhere else in China . . .

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Somewhere in London . . .
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Really now.

Somewhere in China . . .
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Somewhere else in China . . .

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Somewhere in London . . .
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Thank you for pointing this out, as I believe that most people here grossly underestimate just how car-dependent supposedly rail-loving European (or Asian) countries still are! Even in rail-topia Switzerland, the car eclipses all other modes with a modal split of more than 75% (not sure if of trips made or distance travelled), i.e., 4.5 times that of rail:
IMG_6210.jpeg

Which country has the highest length of HSR?
How is that relevant for anything discussed here? Anyways, the country with the longest HSR length per capita is Spain and yet the modal split for cars is in excess of 80% (i.e., 14 times the figure for rail):
IMG_6211.jpeg
 
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The automobile has been a mobility blessing for the entire world..... unless we want to go back to the range and limitations of a horse and cart, we need automobiles to get to places that we can't build railways to. We have reached a point of over-dependence, but that's a matter of degree... the pendulum will never go all the way back.
The rail network that was built in Canada the 1880-1920 period was far more than needed, however, and many lines were grossly uneconomic from Day 1. Railway builder investment had many empty promises and lost riches.
The challenge for Canada (and other places) is to rebuild enough capacity - where volumes warrant - to change modal share and prevent further growth in more expensive uses of other modes.. It's quite reasonable to look for incremental additions to the network, but we need better metrics and common methods of analysing impacts across all options.

- Paul
 
Thank you for pointing this out, as I believe that most people here grossly underestimate just how car-dependent supposedly rail-loving European (or Asian) countries still are!
Here's a trick for not filling the screens of us folks who are not involved in your two-way spats. After you post go back and click edit and then grab the corner of your image and shrink it to a small size. If anyone wants to see the image, when they click on it it will increase to the original size. As an example I've posted your images below but at a size more considerate of those less interested.

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And besides, everyone knows the Euros like their cars. They've got some of the best roads and highways in the world, as well as many of the top auto brands. The difference is in Europe the taxes on car ownership are enormous in order to fund national programs, like the railways. And in Europe, passenger rail rarely travels on freight rail. Europe shows that it's not a zero sum relationship - you can have widespread car use and excellent car infrastructure while also having excellent passenger rail. Same goes for Japan. But if we look at large countries with lower population density, like Australia, Russia, the USA and Canada, not so much.
 
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The automobile has been a mobility blessing for the entire world..... unless we want to go back to the range and limitations of a horse and cart, we need automobiles to get to places that we can't build railways to. We have reached a point of over-dependence, but that's a matter of degree... the pendulum will never go all the way back.
The rail network that was built in Canada the 1880-1920 period was far more than needed, however, and many lines were grossly uneconomic from Day 1. Railway builder investment had many empty promises and lost riches.
The challenge for Canada (and other places) is to rebuild enough capacity - where volumes warrant - to change modal share and prevent further growth in more expensive uses of other modes.. It's quite reasonable to look for incremental additions to the network, but we need better metrics and common methods of analysing impacts across all options.

- Paul
Imagine a parking garage at Washago. In that parking garage are a hundred or more rental cars. Outside of the station is a transit terminal with bus bays. So, instead of taking your car and crawling along the 400 to get to your cottage, you take the train and then for the major marinas, a bus takes you there. For those places that are off the beaten path,you rent a car. You could get rid of at least half the traffic. on the 400 during the long weekends. Is this a fantasy? To some degree it very much is.However, it is something that could be done. Obviously there would be a high cost in much of this, but it could be a reality. The problem is we are so addicted to our cars that the thought of this sounds preposterous. Those very stations do exist to some extent along the QC-W corridor. I can get to many of the major stations and not need a car to continue to my destination.

What i have described are most of Canada's airports. That is why we don't worry about flying. We have options to solve the first and last mile of our journey. No one here would suggest driving across Canada just because you need transportation when you get to your destination. Right now, we cannot use the train to replace flying outside of the Corridor if we wanted to.
 
Here's a trick for not filling the screens of us folks who are not involved in your two-way spats. After you post go back and click edit and then grab the corner of your image and shrink it to a small size. If anyone wants to see the image, when they click on it it will increase to the original size. As an example I've posted your images below but at a size more considerate of those less interested.
I usually post from my phone and occasionally forget how big screenshots from my phone appear. Anyways, as a stop gap, I’ve cropped away the bottom and hid them in a spoiler, so that you are not forced to scroll through them…
 
Imagine a parking garage at Washago. In that parking garage are a hundred or more rental cars. Outside of the station is a transit terminal with bus bays. So, instead of taking your car and crawling along the 400 to get to your cottage, you take the train and then for the major marinas, a bus takes you there. For those places that are off the beaten path,you rent a car. You could get rid of at least half the traffic. on the 400 during the long weekends. Is this a fantasy? To some degree it very much is.However, it is something that could be done. Obviously there would be a high cost in much of this, but it could be a reality. The problem is we are so addicted to our cars that the thought of this sounds preposterous. Those very stations do exist to some extent along the QC-W corridor. I can get to many of the major stations and not need a car to continue to my destination.

There is a big difference between "having an addiction" and "finding sufficient utility to make it worth crawling along in traffic".

Most people I know who do the cottage thing on weekends take along sufficient baggage that they would not be eager to schlep it all to Union, board the train, and then transfer the baggage into a shared use vehicle at the end of the trip. Plus, most people I know enjoy the flexibility of deciding exactly when they will leave and when they will return, stopping if need be or at a whim, etc. Most have favourite restaurants and supermarkets along the way.

From the government's perspective, there really isn't an expense to having the highways fill up for a few hours and then empty out a few hours later. The users feel the pain, not the government, and most accept whatever inconvenience or delay is imposed. So investing money to reduce use of the highway (which at this point is a sunk cost and won't be expanding much), when demand regulates itself, is not a compelling thing.

Now, if government decided to add extra lanes for the highway just to handle the Friday/Sunday peak.... knowing those lanes will be empty the rest of the week.... one might argue that the highway expansion is a poor investment. But I'm not seeing as much of that incessant congestion as one might think. It's the stretch of the 401 from Dixie to 404 that never empties out, from pre dawn to midnight, seven days a week..... not the 400 or 404.

The indirect costs of the cottage traffic (added policing, damage and injury or even death due to added collisions, delays to those whose time is money) are pretty hard to quantify. But more importantly - can they actually be reduced in a way that compells action? It's quite arguable that we could propbably fund a train with the money we would save in insurance claims from the reduction in accidents if the weekend rush were reduced - but, can we actually extract that money in a tangible way?

I do think a commuter service from Cottage Country into the city would be popular, but I would base it around people who have the ability to work from their cottage home and only come to the city for business or appointments, and usually do so with little luggage, maybe a briefcase or laptop. Those people would find utility in not driving. They would likely not be daily commuters, but there might be enough doing one day a week that the train would fill up every weekday. So yeah a parking garage at Washago might have utility. The Northlander will sort of be on that schedule, so maybe that demand will be measurable when the train starts running. But if those folks already drive to Bradford and ride GO.....the added train adds no further utility, and GO is more frequent so may be more attractive even if there is a longer drive at the outer end.

But my point is, a mantra of "car bad, train good" is not realistic. We have to study transportation habits and do insightful business cases. In many cases, the use of private autos is rational and delivers more value than a train would..... even if driving in stop and start traffic is unpleasant.

- Paul
 
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There is a big difference between "having an addiction" and "finding sufficient utility to make it worth crawling along in traffic".

Most people I know who do the cottage thing on weekends take along sufficient baggage that they would not be eager to schlep it all to Union, board the train, and then transfer the baggage into a shared use vehicle at the end of the trip. Plus, most people I know enjoy the flexibility of deciding exactly when they will leave and when they will return, stopping if need be or at a whim, etc. Most have favourite restaurants and supermarkets along the way.

From the government's perspective, there really isn't an expense to having the highways fill up for a few hours and then empty out a few hours later. The users feel the pain, not the government, and most accept whatever inconvenience or delay is imposed. So investing money to reduce use of the highway (which at this point is a sunk cost and won't be expanding much), when demand regulates itself, is not a compelling thing.

Now, if government decided to add extra lanes for the highway just to handle the Friday/Sunday peak.... knowing those lanes will be empty the rest of the week.... one might argue that the highway expansion is a poor investment. But I'm not seeing as much of that incessant congestion as one might think. It's the stretch of the 401 from Dixie to 404 that never empties out, from pre dawn to midnight, seven days a week..... not the 400 or 404.

I do think a commuter service from Cottage Country into the city would be popular, but I would base it around people who have the ability to work from their cottage home and only come to the city for business or appointments, and usually do so with little luggage, maybe a briefcase or laptop. Those people would find utility in not driving. They would likely not be daily commuters, but there might be enough doing one day a week that the train would fill up every weekday. So yeah a parking garage at Washago might have utility. The Northlander will sort of be on that schedule, so maybe that demand will be measurable when the train starts running.

But my point is, a mantra of "car bad, train good" is not realistic. We have to study transportation habits and do insightful business cases. In many cases, the use of private autos is rational and delivers more value than a train would.

- Paul

Imagine schlepping the same baggage to an airport. Some people are wealthy enough to have a vacation home somewhere far away and visit as regularly as someone might visit a cottage. They drive to and from the airport.

The car is not good or bad. But, it is not always the best thing.Think of smaller cities that have nothing more than buses for their transit system. That gets some people to use it. Generally, they are the ones that cannot afford a car but still need to do the very things those with a car need to do. Then lets suppose they can get money for an LRT to replace those buses? All of a sudden more people will look at it as not just for the poor.

Outside the Corridor, Via really is seen as one thing - for the wealthy that want to ride a land yacht.The trains on the Corridor are seen as for everyone. Why is that?
My thinking is it is because it is as reliable as any other mode of transportation that someone could use, and comes often enough to be useful.Some sections are as little as 3 times a day, while others are at least 10 times a day. The frequency matches the need and the availability of the tracks. I would not suggest every section of the Corridor should have 10 trips a day as the usage just isn't here.

This all goes back to if Via outside the Corridor is to survive, howto make it relevant again. The answer is a Corridor like service on the sections that are close enough to be worth it. I don't mean financially worth it, but worth it time wise. Start with a promise of daily on all routes. Where there is higher usage, add a section local train. Ensure all major stations have safe parking and transit connections.
 
Most people I know who do the cottage thing on weekends take along sufficient baggage that they would not be eager to schlep it all to Union, board the train, and then transfer the baggage into a shared use vehicle at the end of the trip. Plus, most people I know enjoy the flexibility of deciding exactly when they will leave and when they will return, stopping if need be or at a whim, etc.
The train can still be useful for cottagers. My friends have a cottage near Smiths Falls. One family group drives up with all the provisions, and then those who have to work in the city take the VIA back and forth from Toronto throughout the summer and are picked up at Smiths Falls. They don’t commute daily, but their RTO rules require 3 days a week in person, so they work tues-thur and take VIA Toronto to Smiths Falls on Thursday night, returning on the 6:15 am Tuesday train and arrive at the office by 11am. There’s an earlier 5am train that gets you to work by 9am, but she never takes that, but on days she needs to be at work before 11am on Tuesdays there’s also a 6:30 pm train on Mondays she sometimes takes that gets into Toronto around 10:30 pm.

And once the Ontario Northland starts running passenger service to Bracebridge and Hunstsville a whole other group of cottagers can use rail to get to and from Toronto to fulfil rto work.





 
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Imagine a parking garage at Washago. In that parking garage are a hundred or more rental cars. Outside of the station is a transit terminal with bus bays. So, instead of taking your car and crawling along the 400 to get to your cottage, you take the train and then for the major marinas, a bus takes you there. For those places that are off the beaten path,you rent a car. You could get rid of at least half the traffic. on the 400 during the long weekends. Is this a fantasy? To some degree it very much is.However, it is something that could be done. Obviously there would be a high cost in much of this, but it could be a reality. The problem is we are so addicted to our cars that the thought of this sounds preposterous. Those very stations do exist to some extent along the QC-W corridor. I can get to many of the major stations and not need a car to continue to my destination.

What i have described are most of Canada's airports. That is why we don't worry about flying. We have options to solve the first and last mile of our journey. No one here would suggest driving across Canada just because you need transportation when you get to your destination. Right now, we cannot use the train to replace flying outside of the Corridor if we wanted to.

And I wonder what those companies with their fleets of buses and rentals would do from Monday to Thursday, and from September to June. You do realize that not everyone vacations near Washago, or would this be replicated in Gravenhurst, Bracebridge, Hunstville, Mactier, etc.? Poor Haliburton - no rail.

Stand on a Hwy 400 overpass some Friday night; the train would need a baggage car and maybe a auto rack or something for the watercraft (do rental cars come with hitches?) plus building supplies and all manner of assorted cargo.

You seem to have an image that Muskoka and Haliburton are water-access vacation land where people either use marinas to access their cottage or are "off the beaten path". Sure, there are some water-access cottages but they are in the minority. There used to be 'holiday trains' to places like Gravenhurst and Bala, back when people went to lodges or 'houses' (Cleveland's House, Elgin House, etc.) and only the wealthy had their own summer homes. The trains actually went to water's edge where they met steamers who took passengers up lake. Those days are gone.
 
And I wonder what those companies with their fleets of buses and rentals would do from Monday to Thursday, and from September to June.

The far out there answer is they could be moved to other locations needing them. Even at Pearson, there are days when there are lots of cars and there are days when good luck getting anything. I'd imagine the same, where the long weekends would be booked solid.

You do realize that not everyone vacations near Washago, or would this be replicated in Gravenhurst, Bracebridge, Hunstville, Mactier, etc.? Poor Haliburton - no rail.

.... you are starting to see a future where car dependency is no longer a thing. Key thing is, the train must exist, and must be timed for it to work. The GO London experiment showed what happens when it is not scheduled right. Who starts work after 9 am and can leave before 5pm?

Stand on a Hwy 400 overpass some Friday night; the train would need a baggage car and maybe a auto rack or something for the watercraft (do rental cars come with hitches?) plus building supplies and all manner of assorted cargo.

Hence why I said half the traffic. Count the numbers of cars without trailers. Those people would be the ones who potentially could be using a train and other means if it were possible.

You seem to have an image that Muskoka and Haliburton are water-access vacation land where people either use marinas to access their cottage or are "off the beaten path". Sure, there are some water-access cottages but they are in the minority. There used to be 'holiday trains' to places like Gravenhurst and Bala, back when people went to lodges or 'houses' (Cleveland's House, Elgin House, etc.) and only the wealthy had their own summer homes. The trains actually went to water's edge where they met steamers who took passengers up lake. Those days are gone.

I know those days are gone. I also know nothing like I said would be that simple. Considering that going from Union to Bracebridge is expected to take 2.5 hours and leave Union at 6pm, there is potential. You can spend 2 hours just going from the 401 to Barrie. You still have an hour to drive. So, the train wins on time.

... maybe I should look up starting some sort of "cottage commuting"transportation.....
 
... maybe I should look up starting some sort of "cottage commuting"transportation.....
I would finally take that “Economics 101” class and review the chapters on “Fixed Costs” and how to account for them in your business plan before daring to approach any potential investor…
 

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