News   May 17, 2024
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King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

It will be extremely interesting to see what becomes of the nightmare that is the Spadina and King intersection on a Friday or Saturday night. Before the pilot at those hours, there is always a huge backlog of cars westbound on King in the Portland/Brant area. Cars coming north of south on Spadina always turn westbound onto King regardless of the backlog, thereby blocking the Spadina intersection. Now with the right lane of King blocked by the barrier, I wonder if this backlog will be worsened.

This is one of my biggest concerns with the pilot. I once made the mistake of driving west on Spadina and King on a Saturday evening. It took me five minutes to travel one block due to the hordes of taxis. This will have significant negative impacts on streetcar operations.
 
This is one of my biggest concerns with the pilot. I once made the mistake of driving west on Spadina and King on a Saturday evening. It took me five minutes to travel one block due to the hordes of taxis. This will have significant negative impacts on streetcar operations.
It always did. How is it any worse?

If it doesn't improve, presumably one of the first things they'll try is removing the exemption for Taxis.
 
I too have caught myself, and observed many others, taking a step or two into the intersection, thinking the walk signal will immediately come on, and then walking back into the sidewalk.

What I observed was different. I should have taken a video. I literally saw maybe 30 people crossing University on the north side of King during the right advance signal without a care in the world. They did not step out too early and then step back.

This has to stop.

Crossing guards for grown-ups? Until they get into the habit?
 
Crossing guards for grown-ups? Until they get into the habit?

Perhaps the city needs NYC-style traffic cops at each intersection along the pilot area. I think just having the cops there would make would-be straight-throughers think twice, and they could potentially yell at/ticket pedestrians who don't obey the signals.
 
This city is such a joke when it comes to transit. I've said countless times the biggest issue is the north/south traffic on Jarvis, spadina, university. They block the intersections and delay east and westbound traffic. King is just empty with the odd streetcar packed to the bloody brim. What's the point in all of this if you can't even transport a large load of people in a timely manner?

So now the traffic is just concentrated to intersections. Good thinking guys.
 
This city is such a joke when it comes to transit. I've said countless times the biggest issue is the north/south traffic on Jarvis, spadina, university. They block the intersections and delay east and westbound traffic. King is just empty with the odd streetcar packed to the bloody brim. What's the point in all of this if you can't even transport a large load of people in a timely manner?

So now the traffic is just concentrated to intersections. Good thinking guys.

"With the odd streetcar...?" The King streetcar is the busiest surface route in Toronto, 65 000 riders a day. Not sure what you're harping on about.
 
I was on King @ Jarvis last night and noticed many cars continuing westward. As has been noted before, there is a 'disconnect' for drivers who see a 'regular' green light and (maybe because they have done it for decades) continue to go straight ahead. In daylight the Red Arrow (no straight ahead) signs are fairly clear, at night the are virtually invisible. They need the LED Ones SOON!
 
This city is such a joke when it comes to transit. I've said countless times the biggest issue is the north/south traffic on Jarvis, spadina, university. They block the intersections and delay east and westbound traffic. King is just empty with the odd streetcar packed to the bloody brim. What's the point in all of this if you can't even transport a large load of people in a timely manner?

So now the traffic is just concentrated to intersections. Good thinking guys.

I think the King pilot is working quite well (I must admit I am pleasantly surprised) and "a large load of people" ARE being transported "in a timely manner" but agree that the cars blocking north-south intersections does not help. You mention King & Jarvis, this intersection (and Jarvis & Front and Jarvis & The Esplanade) have seen this problem for many years. The answer is for police to enforce the law that says vehicles should not enter an intersection that they cannot exit. In fact King & Jarvis used to have orange lines painted on it to remind motorists; the City gave up repainting them because (I was told several years ago by staff in Transportation) the police never enforced this.
 
I think the King pilot is working quite well (I must admit I am pleasantly surprised) and "a large load of people" ARE being transported "in a timely manner" but agree that the cars blocking north-south intersections does not help. You mention King & Jarvis, this intersection (and Jarvis & Front and Jarvis & The Esplanade) have seen this problem for many years. The answer is for police to enforce the law that says vehicles should not enter an intersection that they cannot exit. In fact King & Jarvis used to have orange lines painted on it to remind motorists; the City gave up repainting them because (I was told several years ago by staff in Transportation) the police never enforced this.

I used to jokingly think it would be cool if the city hired citizens like me to sit at Front and Jarvis or Front and King to hand out tickets to drivers blocking the intersection. I would be very rich right now!
 
I'm looking forward to seeing this become permanent.

Turn King into a proper LRT.

Level boarding platforms. Rampless wheel on.

Better hold-green transit priority lights, so vehicles coast to far side platforms with fewer red lights.

Urban realm enhancements.

Add double the streetcars, to push 100K people per day.
Thumbs up on the post, but there is a saturation point as to how many streetcars would be effective on the line as is before it starts degrading what can be optimally achieved. I believe it's capable of only a slight increase in numbers, and by far best that they be the Flexities. As others have noted, the switches are something that need immediate attention to 'speed' things along. Also remember that the ends of the route are stymied for speed and efficiency, which is why I wonder if a third truncated route similar to the Cherry St one could be run along the core section to Sunnyside loop in the west, and perhaps Parliament in the east?
 
The school crossing guards in our neighbourhood do not differentiate by age - if an adult attempts to cross the road, they trot out their sign and stop traffic for adults. I have to admit it infuriates me - am I not able to cross the street on my own? I find I am always reminding myself to be nice, they are just doing their job and it's great that they do it diligently. I suspect that real cops are needed as without that authority there might be 'sidewalk rage' incidents. So yeah, put the cops on the job until people figure things out. Just like after ball games.

- Paul
 
I wonder if we can revise our Flexity order to include a couple of additional segments in each streetcar. Maybe we can take the Crosstown’s LRT cars since the province doesn’t want them.

The 514 can take on the roll of a downtown express line until the relief subway is built in 15 years.
LRT cars are standard gauge, not TTC. (Edit: Unless you mean *converting the order*)That TTC gauge will continue to stifle interoperability as time goes on, it's unfortunate. The King route itself can only absorb a few more streetcars before it surpasses optimal. Perhaps some Queen cars could go "via King Street Mall"? The ends of the route and switches are two things that have to be addressed before many more actual "King" cars are added.
 
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If it doesn't improve, presumably one of the first things they'll try is removing the exemption for Taxis.
This is an issue in itself, distinct from the others. I hope you're right, but the way so many councillors caved so readily on the taxi exemption (even being restricted times) is a cause of large concern. The taxi issue certainly isn't going to go away.

literally saw maybe 30 people crossing University on the north side of King during the right advance signal without a care in the world.

Perhaps the city needs NYC-style traffic cops at each intersection along the pilot area. I

I used to jokingly think it would be cool if the city hired citizens like me to sit at Front and Jarvis or Front and King to hand out tickets to drivers blocking the intersection. I would be very rich right now!

I suspect that real cops are needed as without that authority there might be 'sidewalk rage' incidents. So yeah, put the cops on the job until people figure things out. Just like after ball games.

The common thread remains *enforcement*. Without that, no aspect of the pilot will succeed. What Council can do almost immediately, based on the initial success of this, before the end of the first two weeks, is pass an emergency motion to allocate a budget to TPS for continued police presence. The issue can be based on safety alone for those councillors who resent the success of this project. Frame the motion in such a way as to leave them looking the pious, isolated dolts that they are when they vote against 'Public Safety'.

Further to that point, as an avid cyclist, I see a very real danger to "cyclists will use the curb lane to go straight ahead on the 'Right Turns Only' signal.". Think about that. Unless they are required to wait for the pedestrian 'Walk' signal, it's a matter of time before one tries to cut through moving right turning vehicles (and we've already witnessed the inertia they are moving at) and a cyclist isn't going to make it across without severe grief. With so many tracks in the road, it's a challenge for many cyclists to attain the right angle to cross them as it is.

As the project unfolds, I see many dangers for cyclists going through until actual (if ever, space is severely constrained) cycling infrastructure is built and restrictions are enforced. Just as cars and pedestrians don't mix, cars and cyclists barely mix (with caveats) cycles and streetcars with limited space don't mix, and many cyclists and pedestrians don't mix (Witness Harbourfront or parks).

Something's got to give on this. The importance of the project is Streetcars, and then pedestrians. Bikes would be nice, but not doing it in a compromised way as is the case now. And my feeling is that the only vehicles allowed, at least on the central part, should be those with a permit, and emergency/service vehicles. This is how it's done in other jurisdictions.

And if cyclists are required to walk their bike as a pedestrian, (unless they too hold a permit) that should be balanced by banning all taxis, save those for WheelTrans (w/ permit). The 'Right Turn Only' signs can then state "Permit Holders Excepted Only".

Here's how Melbourne (often cited in the City's model comparisons) handles it: (And note! Since this is a By-law, it can and is enforced by By-law officers, not police, saving police to enforce 'highway traffic' offences)
Swanston Street and Bourke Street Mall permits
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Businesses wanting access to Swanston Street or Bourke Street Mall can apply for vehicle access parking permits.
Vehicle access permits
The Vehicle Access Permit scheme controls vehicle access and parking in areas that are primarily for use by pedestrians:

  • Swanston Street, between Flinders and La Trobe streets
  • Bourke Street Mall, between Elizabeth and Swanston streets.
This scheme maintains reasonable access for vehicles that are required to service businesses within these areas.

Eligibility
To be eligible a business must be servicing properties in Swanston Street or Bourke Street Mall. The requirement to access these areas must be verified by providing a letter from your client. It must state the area to which you need access and the pick-up/drop-off points.

Vehicle Access Permits will not be issued to buses, coaches or taxis.

How the scheme works
When the vehicle is parked the permit must be displayed on its dashboard, near the registration label, for parking officers to view. To be legally parked, you must clearly display a valid permit with all inscriptions visible from outside the vehicle.

Where you can park
A vehicle displaying a Vehicle Access Permit is allowed to park:

  • in areas marked 'Authorised Vehicles Excepted'
  • during the times that the signs operate
  • during the times that the permit is valid
  • for no longer than the time limit on the permit.
Vehicle Access Permits for Swanston Street typically only allow parking for up to 30 minutes and are not valid between:

  • 7.30am and 9.30am
  • noon and 2pm
  • 4pm and 7pm.
Vehicle Access Permits for Bourke Street Mall and Swanston Street typically only allow parking for up to 30 minutes and are not valid between:

  • 7.30am and 9.30am
  • 10.30am and midnight.
Where you cannot park
This permit does not allow the holder to park in:

  • 'No Stopping' areas
  • 'People with Disabilities' zones
  • bus stops or taxi ranks
  • construction zones.
Interim permits
You can obtain an interim Vehicle Access Permit while your permit application is being processed.

A maximum of one interim permit per year is issued for applicants who do not wish to apply for the annual permit. The interim permit is valid for 14 days.

How to apply
Complete the application form:

Submit the completed application form by post, email, fax or in person.

Please read Conditions of issue and use (DOC 44 KB) before applying for your permit.

Post:
City of Melbourne Permits and Review Team
PO Box 488
Melbourne VIC 3001

Email:
vehicleaccess@melbourne.vic.gov.au

Fax:
03 9658 9912

In person:
Melbourne Town Hall
Administration Building
120 Swanston Street, Melbourne
7.30am to 5pm, Monday to Friday (public holidays excluded).

[...]
http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/par...s/swanston-street-and-bourke-street-mall.aspx
 
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Cyclists are legally not allowed to pass right turning cars on the right, which means they are only in danger if they put themselves in danger.

The proper approach for a bicycle at any intersection should be to line up behind cars and follow the traffic. Or use the bicycle lanes on Richmond and Adelaide. I don't think we need to ban taxis or license cyclists. We just need to fine anybody who doesn't follow traffic laws.
 
OK, I was expecting this response.
Cyclists are legally not allowed to pass right turning cars on the right, which means they are only in danger if they put themselves in danger.
Lining up your front wheel with track gully puts you in danger. Think about this, and think about why signs like this are necessary:
upload_2017-11-16_9-54-34.png
It's to avoid cyclists getting 'railed'.
The proper approach for a bicycle at any intersection should be to line up behind cars and follow the traffic.
See above. I take it you don't cycle?

Or use the bicycle lanes on Richmond and Adelaide.
Bingo! Or just walk through the dangerous intersection. I'm a very accomplished cyclist, and there's some I look at and conclude: "F that, I'm walking across". I like staying alive in one piece.

I don't think we need to ban taxis or license cyclists.
I never mentioned "licence". It's a *permit*. Used all the time for street parking in certain areas of the City, and for other instances. This is nothing at all revolutionary. Are bicycles permitted on controlled access highways? Are other vehicles not permitted on highways? King Street Core can become a "Controlled Access Throughway".

Edit to Add: "Controlled Access Highway" would also allow greater enforcement under the HTA! https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900630

Must run, will take a more detailed read later, but the above (HTA Controlled Access) seems to offer a lot. Whether applicable in this instance or not is a good question. Will take close look later.

Quick dig:

Application of Act to places other than highways
1.1 The Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations providing that this Act or any provision of this Act or of a regulation applies to a specified place or class of place that is not a highway. 2007, c. 13, s. 2.

This might also qualify a 'corridor' under such a ruling for Provincial Funding, in whole or in part. It might also qualify for a transit grant. The worst part would be Il Duce setting up a podium in front of City Hall to make an announcement, and another, and another...
 

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