King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[innsertnamehere]

It will likely be in place for the 2018 election. If you have been following the OMB hearing for it, the councillors lawyers are essentially getting laughed out of the room. They asked for a delay of hearing that would disallow the boundaries to be in place for the 2018 election, and the board denied it. The OMB very much so realizes that it should be in place for 2018, and is not allowing any games that prevent that.

 

[TOareaFan]

I had the same reaction when I went along King yesterday, but that's an opportunity statement rather than a complaint. It's too soon to say we have solved the streetcar problem on King, but it's a very promising start. Now, the other big opportunity is for the City to decide what's the best use of all that vacant street space.... sidewalks? cobblestones? grass?

Ruling out cars already? I am still convinced that much of what we have seen in the early days of this pilot (ie. the vastly improved and appreciated streetcar speeds/movement/efficiency) could/would have been achieved with just very strict enforcement/punishment under the old rules......and that would allow cars to return to the right hand lane on King.....is that off the table for consideration at the end of this pilot? Have we decided "the old rules weren't enforced and didn't work....but these new rules were enforced and do work"?

 

[Edward Skira]

It will likely be in place for the 2018 election. If you have been following the OMB hearing for it, the councillors lawyers are essentially getting laughed out of the room. They asked for a delay of hearing that would disallow the boundaries to be in place for the 2018 election, and the board denied it. The OMB very much so realizes that it should be in place for 2018, and is not allowing any games that prevent that.

At this pace perhaps some other issues can be revisited (Scarborough subway, Gardiner).

 

[ADRM]

I rode my bike on King between about Portland and Yonge during rush hour this morning and was astonished at how pleasant an experience it was, and I say that as someone who was very skeptical that the pilot would mean anything positive for cyclists.

There's just so little vehicular traffic that it feels roughly as safe as riding on a quiet residential street, and even more so than some because the drivers who are there are moving quite slowly behind the streetcars.

It's still not a great cycling route for long distances because you wind up stuck behind the streetcar doors and actually can't now readily pass them when they're moving because they're finally moving more quickly than the average commuter cyclist can easily manage, but it's great for shorter distances. Felt safe on King as a cyclist and pedestrian for the first time in recent memory. And traffic of all kinds seemed to be moving very well during rush hour on both Richmond and Adelaide, too.

Between this and the start of my commute on the Bloor bike lanes, I was a happy -- dare I say optimistic -- Torontonian this morning.

 

[MetroMan]

If it's flat concrete slabs bolted down to make them removable and create a plinth extension from the sidewalk to the streetcar, now is the time to do it. If you can use tapcons to attach yellow tactile strip to the asphalt, the same or less labour is involved in bolting down pre-cast concrete slabs to the road using bolt anchors. The colouring wasn't what I was referring to. I'm referring to the built form in the renderings offering streetcar riders a much safer and defined area to embark/disembark at the stops. It would also speed up doing so. Once a plinth is in place *then* yellow tactile strip can be used as it was meant to warn persons with visual disabilities as to where the edge of the curb is.

You may have misinterpreted the renderings/maps. The coloured segments are just painted road for the duration of the pilot. There are no concrete slabs/plinths.

The city has ordered a large amount of planters that will be arriving next month. These will be placed along the curb lanes to demarcate the pedestrian areas like was done on John St.

Like loading areas and taxi stands, the streetcar stops will be "cut out" into these but the painted road, ramp and bright yellow textured line will make it immediately obvious that it's a streetcar stop — not to mention the people standing in it. The road murals at streetcar stops will be painted in the Spring.

Over the duration of the pilot — mostly in the Spring/Summer — these areas will be programmed to create a sort of year long street festival that should change King St. from appearing so bleak and a waste of space.

 

[steveintoronto]

but it's great for shorter distances.

The City and cyclists must keep this in mind if continued accommodation of cycling on King is to happen. It's one of the reasons I favour *not allowing* cycle through travel at lit intersections. If one intends to only do the last block or so on the bike, the greater efficiency of getting right turning vehicles out of the way by simplifying the light sequence benefits everyone, and as a cyclist, let alone being a pedestrian, crossing that flow of (many 'entitled') drivers turning right is dangerous. As a serious cyclist, I'm prepared to dismount and push the bike through as a pedestrian for the cause of safety and predictability.

Cyclists and pedestrians will have to share space on King, especially if they fulfill the plan to build out raised streetcar loading from the sidewalk, and encouraging 'through' cyclists to cross those raised sections, a la the Roncy or Sherbourne model, and local destination cyclists will ostensibly be far more conscious of the need for caution re pedestrians. Keep the 'highway cycling' on Adelaide and Richmond.

 

[WislaHD]

I was skeptical about the implementation of this project (for not being ambitious enough). Maybe my skepticism was misplaced after all, looks like King is moving well. The implementation of concrete barriers will do more to prevent cars from misbehaving than either signs or law enforcement.

 

[steveintoronto]

You may have misinterpreted the renderings/maps. The coloured segments are just painted road for the duration of the pilot. There are no concrete slabs/plinths.

The city has ordered a large amount of planters that will be arriving next month. These will be placed along the curb lanes to demarcate the pedestrian areas like was done on John St.
[...]
Like loading areas and taxi stands, the streetcar stops will be "cut out" into these but the painted road, ramp and bright yellow textured line will make it immediately obvious that it's a streetcar stop — not to mention the people standing in it. The road murals at streetcar stops will be painted in the Spring.

Over the duration of the pilot — mostly in the Spring/Summer — these areas will be programmed to create a sort of year long street festival that should change King St. from appearing so bleak and a waste of space.

Indeed you are correct. I'd seen an earlier render which showed the raised 'bump-outs' from the sidewalk.

Here's what the City website shows:

[...]
https://web.toronto.ca/city-governm...realm/#tab-tactile-walking-surface-indicators

I see a lot of problems with this as per conflicts of vehicles, cyclists and waiting passengers. The planters, as they are for cycling infrastructure, are necessary now, even if not planted, some physical barrier is needed, and slippery yellow tactile strips isn't it. Many cycle forums are 50/50 on whether cyclists have slipped going *across them* (they are required in the US under Access legislation). Going *along them* when wet or icy? This is a recipe for disaster.

Perhaps pressure to delineate the streetcar area with a sidewalk extension is necessary now...

The implementation of concrete barriers will do more to prevent cars from misbehaving than either signs or law enforcement.

They will continue to be necessary even after more permanent infrastructure is installed. It's not just *regular* dangerous motorists, it's ones with terrorist intent, and NYC was the latest to show how that can unfold.

Your skepticism is healthy and warranted, because all it will take is a major hiccup for this all to go wrong. The barriers are an intrusion, albeit the wrapping at least softens the brutal concrete look, but they are prerequisites.

Like loading areas and taxi stands, the streetcar stops will be "cut out" into these but the painted road and bright yellow textured line will make it immediately obvious that it's a streetcar stop

It brings me back to trying to share space with too many users though. Unfortunately, the name of the game is compromise, huge amounts if you regard the continued car use and lack of right turn requirements at far too many intersections....and now regard what is left for cyclists, since the decision has been made to accommodate them too.

It's a tightrope ride, between the near track rail, with or without a streetcar on it, and the tractably unstable, unpredictable yellow tactile strip.

What cyclist in their right mind is going to temp that? Lots will, but I stated "in their right mind"...which then leaves risk-takers and yahoos cycling through there. Not the right factors for shared use with pedestrians. Best to require, like the Bourke Mall and others do, that cyclists walk as pedestrians for the last block to access their destination along there.

 

[steveintoronto]

Ruling out cars already? I am still convinced that much of what we have seen in the early days of this pilot (ie. the vastly improved and appreciated streetcar speeds/movement/efficiency) could/would have been achieved with just very strict enforcement/punishment under the old rules......and that would allow cars to return to the right hand lane on King.....is that off the table for consideration at the end of this pilot? Have we decided "the old rules weren't enforced and didn't work....but these new rules were enforced and do work"?

Had to think about this for a while before answering. It's a very valid question, and one that might...*will*...come up again later in the assessment of this pilot.

Here's how logic can answer the question: {Have we decided "the old rules weren't enforced and didn't work....but these new rules were enforced and do work"?}

If enforcement is relaxed, this won't work either.

 

[crs1026]

Ruling out cars already? I am still convinced that much of what we have seen in the early days of this pilot (ie. the vastly improved and appreciated streetcar speeds/movement/efficiency) could/would have been achieved with just very strict enforcement/punishment under the old rules......and that would allow cars to return to the right hand lane on King.....is that off the table for consideration at the end of this pilot? Have we decided "the old rules weren't enforced and didn't work....but these new rules were enforced and do work"?

I had the same thought, but Day 4 is not the time to be thinking about a retreat. Absolutely that ought to be one option considered when the pilot review happens. I'm not convinced that this stretch of city is the highest priority for a walkable mall. I would put that on Queen, myself. The victory has been in proving that street cars can be moved through traffic and birds don't fall out of the trees if cars can't make left turns from King.

Where we ought to be going next, IMHO, is a comprehensive city wide rule: No on-street parking on streetcar routes, and no left turns at major intersections (or any left turns, for that matter). Maybe that need only apply during rush hour on the less congested routes (I can live with mixed traffic on Howard Park, for instance).

However - let's not back off on the pilot. We need the full learning from this one.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Where we ought to be going next, IMHO, is a comprehensive city wide rule: No on-street parking on streetcar routes, and no left turns at major intersections

Parking was recently banned on a streetcar route, and it apparently resulted in an increase in streetcar travel times.

 

[Megaton327]

Parking was recently banned on a streetcar route, and it apparently resulted in an increase in streetcar travel times.

Source?

 

[BMO]

Does anybody know why streetcars can never go through intersections that have crossing tracks without stopping? I feel like this alone slows down the trip by a few minutes along the route. Is it an issue with the way the tracks were built? the way the streetcars operate? the switches?

Seems most notable (based on my observations) at Bathurst and Spadina. I've missed way too many green lights for this.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Does anybody know why streetcars can never go through intersections that have crossing tracks without stopping? I feel like this alone slows down the trip by a few minutes along the route. Is it an issue with the way the tracks were built? the way the streetcars operate? the switches?

Seems most notable (based on my observations) at Bathurst and Spadina. I've missed way too many green lights for this.

bad ttc policy. Essentially the TTC maintains some of its switches poorly. Drivers are supposed to stop, check to ensure they are in the correct position, and drive over them at 5km/h, to ensure that the poor condition switches are not damaged. Of course most switches are perfectly fine to go over at full speed, but a few bad apples ruin the bunch as the TTC applies the policy network wide. If the TTC did like most other streetcar operators globally and actually ensured it's switches were up to standard and had their automatic switching working, the policy would be unnecessary. Hell, they could even just limit the policy to the switches that actually need it. You also notice these poor standards when drivers often have to get out and manually change the switch position, as many of the automatic switches are broken and the TTC has not bothered fixing them.

 

[TOareaFan]

I had the same thought, but Day 4 is not the time to be thinking about a retreat. Absolutely that ought to be one option considered when the pilot review happens. I'm not convinced that this stretch of city is the highest priority for a walkable mall. I would put that on Queen, myself. The victory has been in proving that street cars can be moved through traffic and birds don't fall out of the trees if cars can't make left turns from King.

Where we ought to be going next, IMHO, is a comprehensive city wide rule: No on-street parking on streetcar routes, and no left turns at major intersections (or any left turns, for that matter). Maybe that need only apply during rush hour on the less congested routes (I can live with mixed traffic on Howard Park, for instance).

However - let's not back off on the pilot. We need the full learning from this one.

- Paul

I was not suggesting we "back off" the pilot....I was responding to a post that looked forward to permanence and what to do with the open lane....I think cars should be one of the options looked at....yes we have proven there is a way to move streetcars more swiftly...and that is a very good thing.....but I don't think we should assume at this time we have found the only way to do that.

I still believe the old rules, if enforced, would have done that too.