King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[TOareaFan]

Errr...how about "congestion"? Or have we all completely missed the point? Not to mention, I was just checking the map to see where Princess of Wails (sic) theatre is from their parking. Guess what? It's off an intersecting side street.

The point is...the "congestion charge" has no impact on his theatre....because it is not in effect for the vast majority of his shows. Talk about congested streets if fine...but to suggest he should be aware that traffic reducing measures won't impact his business and to use the London congestion charge as an example is erroneous.

 

[crs1026]

The point is...the "congestion charge" has no impact on his theatre....because it is not in effect for the vast majority of his shows. Talk about congested streets if fine...but to suggest he should be aware that traffic reducing measures won't impact his business and to use the London congestion charge as an example is erroneous.

It's pretty important that the planners have a proactive plan to tell people "you will still be able to do x" against the inevitable sky-is-falling rhetoric we will hear as this is debated. There are impacts, for sure, and these should be recognized and articulated as factually as possible....but the counter claims need to be fact checked also.

Keenan's article in the Star was a start, at least it set a tone of "chill" on the whole thing.

- Paul

 

[BMO]

If you have tried walking on King it is clear that the sidewalks have too many pinch-points.

I work right on king in the study area, fair enough I don't walk the entirety of the corridor but I also don't see a dearth of walking space on large portion of the corridor. Maybe a key spots like between Spadina and University? Be that as it may, I guess it would be nice to have an expanded public realm to walk regardless.

 

[Cityminded]

My preference is Option C, Transit Promenade.

It allows streetcar boarding without crossing traffic, generous expansion of the pedestrian realm on both sides of the street, and the possibility of some cycling infrastructure that is shared with the pedestrian space on both sides of the street, and not mixed in with car traffic.

It’s also easier for users to understand: the two centre lanes are clearly designated for vehicles – mostly streetcars and occasionally trucks and cars for deliveries and access to local driveways, with no through traffic. The outside lanes are pedestrian realm and cycling infrastructure – no cars or trucks allowed (except for small areas at intersections for right-turning vehicles).

 

[dowlingm]

If TTC extended the 503 peak hours route to Dufferin Loop, this would (assuming that a car every 12 mins wouldn't be the last straw for Springhurst Loop capacity) do the following:

• Take scheduled turns off Church-King, Wellington-Church, Church-York, York-King
• Take scheduled streetcar operations off a street which will, in one direction, take a certain amount of car and bike overflow displaced from King Street

I didn't hear the whole Mirvish-Galloway interview - did Matt point out to him that as there is parking under PoW, he has more than one direct interest in keeping cars on King?

Neethan Shan - NDP so Mike Layton goes canvassing for a guy who also has history as a subway champion so idk. Even though he is elected now, I expect the pressure from his burb constituents, incited by his fellow burb councillors, to be intense when "war on car" files like this and Gardiner East are discussed.

The one big problem I have with the "we'll just restrict turns" idea is gonna be when drivers respond "IDGAF", as they frequently do in respect of the no-right at King/Bay and Dundas/Yonge.

 

[TOareaFan]

It's pretty important that the planners have a proactive plan to tell people "you will still be able to do x" against the inevitable sky-is-falling rhetoric we will hear as this is debated. There are impacts, for sure, and these should be recognized and articulated as factually as possible....but the counter claims need to be fact checked also.

Keenan's article in the Star was a start, at least it set a tone of "chill" on the whole thing.

- Paul

I agree with you for the most part.....but a good place to start is to not describe any concerns that businesses who located on King and are now concerned about what the changes do to their businesses as "rhetoric".

There will be impacts to some for sure.....buildings that have their parking entrances on King will suffer...think the Esso at King and Strachan will have a hard time staying open......that may be the desired outcome...but it is not rhetoric when they express concern.

 

[44 North]

In the Waterfront Reset report we were shown 2013 peak period volume numbers for the 504, which seem to be missing from this debate and could be helpful. Also there's a chart that shows the general capacities of different transit options. A solution for King would probably fall somewhere around 2500pphpd for the core section, maybe less since those were presented for the waterfront and not King. Forget the rule of thumb, but I think half the peak period number gives a rough peak hour estimate. What this debate also needs is a projection that includes latent demand and ridership projections for the next decade.

 

[salsa]

And right on cue:

Metro Morning Verified account ‏@metromorning
.@Mirvish, with 2 theatres on King West, says the message the King Street redevelopment sends to ppl is "don't come downtown."
https://twitter.com/metromorning/status/831475141762772992

AoD

 

[Megaton327]

I'm not defending this viewpoint, but those who want to see the most change need to recognise that change is painful and there are reasons for some peoples' resistance. You have to analyse and mitigate the resistance, not just dismiss it.

Mirvish's business depends on the parking lots around the theatres. The people who come downtown to see shows still drive. You can tell them "just use transit" but that is actually a daunting and fear-inducing prospect. Frankly, I'm at the age where I think twice before taking GO downtown for evening events with my spouse, because the trip home involves cars full of shit-faced college students who in their compromised state of judgement just might take a poke at me if I tell them to sit down and shut up (as I have had to do). And let's not bring the 501 into this. Also, this demographic does have mobility issues. A walk to the garage may still be OK but a walk all the way to Union (or even to St Patrick, with stairs down and up again) may be a challenge. You see lots of walkers and canes at the Royal Alex. It would help if the 504 were a priority for low-floor streetcars - we have no confirmation yet that it's a priority for Flexity rollout. Worst case, we build transit priority and a pedestrian mall but the streetcar still isn't barrier free yet. Lastly, until RER gives late evening service on more routes, transit may not be an option. Driving to Finch and taking the subway means a fairly lengthy journey at a late hour, and a dark parking lot that may not be secure.

We need some facts about this demographic and how much the changes might affect businesses like Mirvish's. And we need effective mitigating strategies, like how the access to the parking garages around the theatres will be maintained.

- Paul

I agree with your point about Mirvish's clientele, but 1) none of the proposals fully ban auto traffic for this very reason, I don't believe a single proposal involves a single garage or other piece of property losing its driveway access, but please correct me if you have information to the contrary, and 2) even if this were a valid concern, are we trying to build a city where residents and workers can move around easily and with a vibrant downtown streetscape, or are we trying to make things a tiny bit easier for suburban visitors to one or two theatres?

 

[BurlOak]

Separated Lanes Option (A). This I understand fully. Centre lanes for streetcar only. right lanes for vehicles only

Alternating Loops Option (B). This appears to require entire block segments with no curbside access (yellow on top-right). Also, it allows cars onto the street car tracks (top left blue arrow) to pass loading vehicles (or maybe anytime they feel like it). The biggest location where cars will be stopped is to make a right turn - this is the one area where cars cannot go onto streetcar tracks.

Transit Promenade Option (C). Same problem with cars on streetcar tracks - not just periodically to pass a stopped vehicle, but for continuous travel as well.

How about option D. Widened sidewalks mid-block with cars on streetcar tracks. At intersections and/or entrances, short right lane for turning (so as not to block streetcar tracks) and original sidewalk. No left turns.

 

[nfitz]

There will be impacts to some for sure.....buildings that have their parking entrances on King will suffer...think the Esso at King and Strachan will have a hard time staying open....

Pilot project only goes to Bathurst. Strachan wouldn't be impacted.

 

[TOareaFan]

Pilot project only goes to Bathurst. Strachan wouldn't be impacted.

oops...yep, somehow I heard Bathurst and pictured Dufferin...but I still think there will be an impact to that business....maybe not enough to close em down but impacted all the same.

 

[44 North]

How about option D. Widened sidewalks mid-block with cars on streetcar tracks. At intersections and/or entrances, short right lane for turning (so as not to block streetcar tracks) and original sidewalk. No left turns.

I'm wondering if there could be an option D that uses the placement of crossovers/switches. Depending on time-of-day or events, streetcars could alternate to sharing tracks. Obviously there'd have to be a new form of streetcar signalling put in. Not sure if it makes any sense, but this is something I haven't seen considered by TTC before. Probably a reason tho.

Swanston in Melbourne: https://goo.gl/maps/EzsWSKd2HpH2

 

[salsa]

Pilot project only goes to Bathurst. Strachan wouldn't be impacted.

This is only a preliminary decision. Staff are open to extending the pilot to Dufferin based on feedback from the public. A number of people called for this in the meeting because of the large amount of development in Liberty Village.

 

[Momin]

City Presents Options for King Street 'Pedestrian-First' Corridor