King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[afransen]

I do not think there will ever be the political appetite to get rid of cars anywhere in Canada, wholesale, in your natural lifespan or mine.

Montreal seems to have more backbone on this front.

 

[nfitz]

1. trams are slower in transit malls because of safety concerns for pedestrians. they have to operate a slower speeds for that reason.

It's a transit mall, not a pedestrian mall.

Depends on the design, some transit malls are very pedestrian unfriendly!

2. i never want to hear the sentence we don't have enough $ to build higher order transit. it's a lame excuse and isn't congruent with reality. why are the expanding and building more rapid transit than ever before? must be out of money.

 

[FastidiousHack]

2. i never want to hear the sentence we don't have enough $ to build higher order transit. it's a lame excuse and isn't congruent with reality. why are the expanding and building more rapid transit than ever before? must be out of money.

I understand your sentiment, and that investment in public transportation infrastructure usually provides solid returns, but I'm not sure a blank cheque is the best way to approach improving our infrastructure.

I'm all for a King St. Subway. But instead of just funding it, I think could come directly from the $500M for a parking lot at Ontario Place, and ~$5B for Highway 413. That way we actually reduce congestion, build infrastructure that reflects our priorities, and show fiscal restraint all at the same time.

 

[DirectionNorth]

1. trams are slower in transit malls because of safety concerns for pedestrians. they have to operate a slower speeds for that reason.

Slower than what? Grade separated? Sure, but there’s stop spacing to consider for that too. Consolidation is possible - though not necessarily desirable - on the surface.

Also, speed is not the end-all-be-all. Many streetcar trips are local trips, and higher speeds, wider stop spacing, and underground stations may not decrease door-to-door travel time.

2. i never want to hear the sentence we don't have enough $ to build higher order transit. it's a lame excuse and isn't congruent with reality. why are the expanding and building more rapid transit than ever before? must be out of money.

It’s not only “how much does this cost?”, but also “what’s the benefit of this spending?” A tunnel under King, in addition to screwing over E-W riders (both through OL-Kong diversions and worse local service), would have a high cost for not much benefit. What if we spent that money on bus lanes, or new buses in York Region, or a subway somewhere else, or better streetcar maintenance so we don’t have diversions every other week? Can you get 90% the benefit for half the cost, or 70% the benefit for 20% the cost (for example)?

Money doesn’t grow on trees. There’s a trade off for everything, let’s not think of resources as infinite.

 

[milkycontent]

1. trams are slower in transit malls because of safety concerns for pedestrians. they have to operate a slower speeds for that reason.

Going slow for pedestrian safety is still faster than completely stopped because there are cars in your way.
OL/subway along King or Queen would obviously be preferred, but this is something we could do tomorrow (and then improve/redesign/etc over time). We can't wait 15 years for a solution.

 

[MrGoose]

1. trams are slower in transit malls because of safety concerns for pedestrians. they have to operate a slower speeds for that reason.

2. i never want to hear the sentence we don't have enough $ to build higher order transit. it's a lame excuse and isn't congruent with reality. why are the expanding and building more rapid transit than ever before? must be out of money.

3. streetcar would have a ROW if they were one way. unfortunately that isn't possible with 60 foot wide streets downtown and two way traffic.

4. luckily there's two one way streets in between them called Adelaide and Richmond. maybe they could also run streetcars across their entire length.

The real answer here is converting Dundas, College, Queen and King to one way streets.

Edit: If we really cared about running streetcars on time, and with greater speed this is what we'd do. Enforcement against drivers in their way and dedicated ROWs. The only way to do dedicated ROWs is either ban cars or make these streets 1-way & 1 lane

Its this, billions of dollars for grade separated streetcars or the status quo.

 

[Dan416]

The real answer here is converting Dundas, College, Queen and King to one way streets.

Edit: If we really cared about running streetcars on time, and with greater speed this is what we'd do. Enforcement against drivers in their way and dedicated ROWs. The only way to do dedicated ROWs is either ban cars or make these streets 1-way & 1 lane

Its this, billions of dollars for grade separated streetcars or the status quo.

I think automated enforcement is a good deterrent. Once people start racking up hundreds of dollars in fines they'll start rethinking driving down King Street. Not everyone of course, maybe the ultra-rich will happily pay those fees. But the vast majority won't want to pay.

 

[MrGoose]

I think automated enforcement is a good deterrent. Once people start racking up hundreds of dollars in fines they'll start rethinking driving down King Street. Not everyone of course, maybe the ultra-rich will happily pay those fees. But the vast majority won't want to pay.

I really just want to see Toronto's streetcars be 1st class citizens in their own ROW.

Whatever it takes; automatic enforcement, liability free cowcatchers or a bunch of concrete parking blocks

If you're in the way of the streetcar, then any damage is your fault and you're liable for paying for damage to the streetcar.

 

[duty free]

The real answer here is converting Dundas, College, Queen and King to one way streets.

Edit: If we really cared about running streetcars on time, and with greater speed this is what we'd do. Enforcement against drivers in their way and dedicated ROWs. The only way to do dedicated ROWs is either ban cars or make these streets 1-way & 1 lane

Its this, billions of dollars for grade separated streetcars or the status quo.

i had a similar idea, but historically lame politicians like adam vaughan thought it would make the downtown core a ghost town. i'm guessing he's never been to New York. anyways i think it would work well.

you're right though for every streetcar to be in ROW it would require converting those routes to one way streets. one lane for vehicle traffic, two for streetcars, one for bikes/station platforms & (maybe delivery trucks as well if a side street can't accommodate them).

 

[duty free]

Slower than what? Grade separated? Sure, but there’s stop spacing to consider for that too. Consolidation is possible - though not necessarily desirable - on the surface.

Also, speed is not the end-all-be-all. Many streetcar trips are local trips, and higher speeds, wider stop spacing, and underground stations may not decrease door-to-door travel time.

It’s not only “how much does this cost?”, but also “what’s the benefit of this spending?” A tunnel under King, in addition to screwing over E-W riders (both through OL-Kong diversions and worse local service), would have a high cost for not much benefit. What if we spent that money on bus lanes, or new buses in York Region, or a subway somewhere else, or better streetcar maintenance so we don’t have diversions every other week? Can you get 90% the benefit for half the cost, or 70% the benefit for 20% the cost (for example)?

Money doesn’t grow on trees. There’s a trade off for everything, let’s not think of resources as infinite.

some great points. i do think a King subway would be a couple of decades from now, post OL & GO expansion (optimization).

hypothetically though if you could create one subway route that doesn't already exist in Toronto (or another region like York) where would you put it? is there a more obvious route than King? maybe another line paralleling Yonge close enough to relieve it like Bay.

 

[CapitalSeven]

To me a more obvious route is Esplande and Front. King already has transit and chunks of Queen will have a Subway. Front and areas south of it are underserved. Building on King would mess up the corridor for 10 years.

 

[Jonny5]

i had a similar idea, but historically lame politicians like adam vaughan thought it would make the downtown core a ghost town. i'm guessing he's never been to New York. anyways i think it would work well.

you're right though for every streetcar to be in ROW it would require converting those routes to one way streets. one lane for vehicle traffic, two for streetcars, one for bikes/station platforms & (maybe delivery trucks as well if a side street can't accommodate them).

Oh yeah there is a big contingent of activists now several generations out of touch in this city that still get unhinged angry over one way streets, and for many in that anti-fandom community it's really a guise to punish people who are able to travel faster that the slowest possible method. They want the city to be where people stagnate and conform, and not ever get ahead or evolve. That's the exact opposite of why a city exists.
EDIT: I should add that I believe Toronto is long past one-way streets being a solution to current congestion problems; those can only be solved by stopping the growth in total traffic at peak, but there are definitely roads in the City where they could be used strategically with a net-positive benefit to everyone.

 

[duty free]

To me a more obvious route is Esplande and Front. King already has transit and chunks of Queen will have a Subway. Front and areas south of it are underserved. Building on King would mess up the corridor for 10 years.

how far east & west would this line go before veering north?

 

[CapitalSeven]

how far east & west would this line go before veering north?

That's a can of worms. Where is the eventual extension of the OL going? Do they both need to go to Bloor? Should one of them go north of Bloor? Is it worth sending one along the Lake to Etobicoke?

In the east, how about intersecting with OL at corktown, then a station at Queen's Quay and Cherry, then under Lakeshore, rising to elevated, and just ending at Coxwell and Queen.

 

[DSC]

That's a can of worms. Where is the eventual extension of the OL going? Do they both need to go to Bloor? Should one of them go north of Bloor? Is it worth sending one along the Lake to Etobicoke?

In the east, how about intersecting with OL at corktown, then a station at Queen's Quay and Cherry, then under Lakeshore, rising to elevated, and just ending at Coxwell and Queen.

UT has several fantasy threads - this discussion might be more appropriate in one of them!