King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[Bojaxs]

If a transit line requires constant enforcement in order to be an effective transit line, then it's not a very well designed transit line. Subways, LRTs, buses don't require any type of enforcement to keep them running.
*sigh* streetcars.....

 

[T3G]

This transit line was designed almost 200 years ago, we can't blame them for not predicting the rise of the auto and the selfish narcissism it would produce.

Without widening the street, which would create more problems than it solves, all we got is enforcement.

Also, cars blocking buses is a very common phenomenon.

 

[Bojaxs]

This transit line was designed almost 200 years ago, we can't blame them for not predicting the rise of the auto and the selfish narcissism it would produce.

Without widening the street, which would create more problems than it solves, all we got is enforcement.

Also, cars blocking buses is a very common phenomenon.

Streetcars belong in Disneyland or some all Inclusive resort in order to move tourists, patrons around. Not on the streets of a burgeoning, downtown, metropolis.

At some point we should replace the Queen and King st. streetcars with a tunneled LRT line. Similar to Crosstown. Maybe in 40 years.

 

[T3G]

Do they?

Better tell Europeans that, as there are many cities there that use above ground streetcars, to much greater effect than we have seen in Toronto since the 1970s.

What would you replace them with before the underground LRT, which is the same thing as an underground streetcar? Buses wouldn't solve any problems, as they would also be blocked by cars, and the Nova LFS is one of the worst transit vehicles in circulation today, so the comfort decrease would also be seriously noticeable.

 

[nfitz]

If a transit line requires constant enforcement in order to be an effective transit line, then it's not a very well designed transit line.

Where that argument falls apart, is that adjacent and nearby roads are also gridlocked with blocked intersections - and no streetcars or buses. Front and Jarvis would be an example.

The solution is, of course, to improve the design. More visual cues. Physical obstructions that interfere with cars at intersections they are not allowed to run through. Barrier arms that only lift for transit vehicles. Cameras for vehicles that run through a no-entry or block the box. There's lots of solutions here. Ultimately, if nothing works, simply ban everything except transit vehicles./QUOTE]

Streetcars belong in Disneyland or some all Inclusive resort in order to move tourists, patrons around. Not on the streets of a burgeoning, downtown, metropolis.

Burgeoning? Is this the 1910s?

 

[Bojaxs]

The solution is, of course, to improve the design. More visual cues. Physical obstructions that interfere with cars at intersections they are not allowed to run through. Barrier arms that only lift for transit vehicles. Cameras for vehicles that run through a no-entry or block the box. There's lots of solutions here.

But that's part of the problem here. Why go through all this nonsense in the first place? Cameras, automatic bollards, etc. Would it not be cheaper just to paint 2 of the lanes red, and mark them as bus lanes? Pretty sure Manhattan, New York has bus lanes in their downtown. Why do we go through all this trouble just because we're obsessed with wanting to maintain our status as one of the few remaining NA cities to have streetcars?

 

[reaperexpress]

Who are you even arguing against @Bojaxs? I don't think that anyone is saying that enforcement is the only thing standing between us and a perfect King Street. The thing about the King Pilot is that it was (wait for it...) a pilot. We used some paint and signs to try out what a transit-priority street might do, but since those don't do much on their own, we needed to supplement them with significant enforcement to keep it at all functional. Plenty of cities around the world manage to keep cars off of the parts of the tram network where they don't belong, without needing to perpetually pay a cop to stand at every corner all day. Because they used (wait for it...) more than just paint and signs.

Obviously the street needs to be rebuilt to permanently ingrain the restrictions on motor traffic and various other changes are required, such as to the signal indications and the transit signal priority setup. The fact that paint and signs didn't get rid of traffic on their own doesn't prove anything about streetcars, it just proves what we already knew about paint and signs.

 

[afransen]

Streetcars belong in Disneyland or some all Inclusive resort in order to move tourists, patrons around. Not on the streets of a burgeoning, downtown, metropolis.

At some point we should replace the Queen and King st. streetcars with a tunneled LRT line. Similar to Crosstown. Maybe in 40 years.

Maybe it is the cars that belong at Disneyland. You see a lot more of them there than streetcars.

 

[pw20]

But that's part of the problem here. Why go through all this nonsense in the first place? Cameras, automatic bollards, etc. Would it not be cheaper just to paint 2 of the lanes red, and mark them as bus lanes? Pretty sure Manhattan, New York has bus lanes in their downtown. Why do we go through all this trouble just because we're obsessed with wanting to maintain our status as one of the few remaining NA cities to have streetcars?

Capacity is at play. Streetcars carry 50% more people that articulated busses. If you removed streetcars your have to run twice the number of busses. There is something to be said about busses - especially given their ability to manouver around parked or stalled cars. However streetcars do provide more capacity and also emit less.

 

[nfitz]

But that's part of the problem here. Why go through all this nonsense in the first place? Cameras, automatic bollards, etc. Would it not be cheaper just to paint 2 of the lanes red, and mark them as bus lanes? Pretty sure Manhattan, New York has bus lanes in their downtown. Why do we go through all this trouble just because we're obsessed with wanting to maintain our status as one of the few remaining NA cities to have streetcars?

Pretty sure that in Manhattan, that the police would be pulling over cars running through intersections. They pretty-much invented red-light cameras there, decades ago. And better yet, they've banned turns on red lights, leading to even less congestion in the box; if they tried that here, drivers would be pointing out that it doesn't work because they don't enforce it.

Few remaining cities having streetcars? I see more and more cities in NA having streetcars - not less.

As for bus lanes ... yes, I think transit-only lanes may be part of the solution. Could probably free up the lanes to do this, by having some streets as one-way only for cars, then with two transit lanes.

Once you remove the cars from the transit lane, and stop blocking intersections, then it doesn't make much difference what you do with the transit lane.

 

[DSC]

But that's part of the problem here. Why go through all this nonsense in the first place? Cameras, automatic bollards, etc. Would it not be cheaper just to paint 2 of the lanes red, and mark them as bus lanes? Pretty sure Manhattan, New York has bus lanes in their downtown. Why do we go through all this trouble just because we're obsessed with wanting to maintain our status as one of the few remaining NA cities to have streetcars?

You seem to have missed the fact the streetcars are making a come-back in many cities - of course, it would be better if we had separate transit-only lanes all over the place but where do you think the space would come from? (Hint, fewer lanes for other traffic).

 

[adys123]

But that's part of the problem here. Why go through all this nonsense in the first place? Cameras, automatic bollards, etc. Would it not be cheaper just to paint 2 of the lanes red, and mark them as bus lanes? Pretty sure Manhattan, New York has bus lanes in their downtown. Why do we go through all this trouble just because we're obsessed with wanting to maintain our status as one of the few remaining NA cities to have streetcars?

This is a bit of an odd argument given the fact that dedicated transit lanes can be used by both buses and trams. And it would probably need the same level of enforcement or redesign to function properly. So it is a rather contradictory argument.

 

[Rainforest]

Ideally, King should be a transit mall with no general traffic.

Some businesses fronting King depend on truck deliveries. Because of that, trucks making such deliveries would be allowed to enter the transit mall during several early morning hours, say 4 to 7 am, when the number of pedestrians is minimal.

Transit malls are common in the centers of European cities, and you can see an occasional truck bringing supplies, but no flowing traffic.

Streetcars in the middle of transit mall are less common, but I've seen a few such designs as well.

 

[Jonny5]

You seem to have missed the fact the streetcars are making a come-back in many cities

Are they?
It's 2023. Back in 2013 I suppose one could be forgiven for believing the wide spread marketing hype and fandom-community that a "streetcar renaissance" was in progress, and you could get that hype from social media and neo-junk news media too that was rife with "ZOMG someone proposed a streetcar in Kalamazoo so they'll be everywhere in five years!!!!"

Where do streetcars sit today? Still at 0.1% of what existed pre capita 80 years ago or so?
I would say it was more of a streetcar dead cat bounce. Expensive toy trains dumped on cities by naive city councils gifted free cash for "green," Now they're mostly white elephants, badly planned and more likely to be ripped out than maintained and expanded at the end of their current life cycle.

Indeed, the "Great Streetcar Renaissance" has probably doomed streetcars.

 

[Bojaxs]

This is a bit of an odd argument given the fact that dedicated transit lanes can be used by both buses and trams. And it would probably need the same level of enforcement or redesign to function properly. So it is a rather contradictory argument.

Except with bus lanes we wouldn't have the extra cost of having to maintain tracks.