King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[turbanplanner]

This is an overly complicated solution where the City / province could just agree to install automated enforcement cameras at 3-4 key intersections. I find in general that Canada lacks the willpower to take a hard line where people are obviously in the wrong. Either a driver went through the intersection contrary to traffic laws, or they didn't. Automate, systematize, enforce.

A lot of us have grown up in my dystopian countries, the nice thing about people being out is they can check if the driver has any other convictions, and it is more of a deterrent if it hits their insurance.

 

[Dr. Snoot]

Yes, just some red light cameras, and green right turn arrows. I'd oppose automated enforcement with the terribly unclear direction provided by signs currently, but with unambiguous red light and 'right turn signal' it is pretty clear you're running a red by proceeding straight.

The signs are no less clear than any other intersection in the City that prohibits left or right turns. I don't really have any sympathy. Unfortunately, the normal green lights need to remain, as taxis, police, and TTC vehicles are allowed through the intersection.

 

[Dr. Snoot]

A lot of us have grown up in my dystopian countries, the nice thing about people being out is they can check if the driver has any other convictions, and it is more of a deterrent if it hits their insurance.

Sure, but the reality is that we can't have enforcement officers sitting along King Street 24/7 for minor traffic infractions. Just jack up the fines and move to an administrative penalty system like red light cameras -- I guarantee the problem would be solved quickly.

 

[lenaitch]

We don't need enforcement. We need these people to be barred from getting driver's licenses to begin with. Enforcement is dealing with the problem once it's been created.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

The world awaits this magic test. Somebody isn't one of "these people" until they become one of these people.

I ride a motorcycle. I’m properly licensed and insured, but many, perhaps most people riding motorcycles have no valid insurance or license. And now that we don’t have validation stickers on our plates, the renewal of which required valid insurance and licensing, there’s no way for police unless they’re typing away in their cruiser, or the public to know if a driver and vehicle was legally allowed on the road. Of course a lot of legally licensed folks buy insurance to renew and then cancel the insurance - this is especially true for sport bikes where the insurance is impossibly expensive.

The old system was flawed as well. Reported insurance information used to get stored by the MTO, then it was reduced to you writing it on the form then them handing the form back to you. Law enforcement does have access direct access to basic insurance information (I don't know if it pops up automatically with vehicle data).

You're probably right about the lack of insurance among young riders. It's high enough for me with 55 years of riding; I can't image what a 20-year-old on a crotch rocket would have to pay. It's a big gamble. The set fine is $5K first offence and $10K for subsequent., but they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

Well, that's the thing. They don't have people who ticket drivers for running red lights, blowing through stop signs or making illegal left turns. A few years ago they did find a bunch of people to stop pedestrians on Richmond and Adelaide, though I think that's mostly stopped now. I totally get that traffic may not be the highest priority, even though cars kill more people a year than murderers in Toronto, it's just where they prioritize.

Actually, according to TPS data . . .

2018 Homicides 98 2019 79 2020 71
Fatal MVA 66 64 40
(no posted MVA data past 2020)

I thought police had automated plate readers. Pretty trivial technology these days.

They do, although I don't know how many. I believe they are assigned to parking enforcement units. The non-trivial part is cost ($15-20K/pop) and space inside a full service police vehicle. They can identify vehicle information (including out-of-data validation) but not driver information.

This is an overly complicated solution where the City / province could just agree to install automated enforcement cameras at 3-4 key intersections. I find in general that Canada lacks the willpower to take a hard line where people are obviously in the wrong. Either a driver went through the intersection contrary to traffic laws, or they didn't. Automate, systematize, enforce.

To be clear, automated enforcement technology can identify 'vehicles' committing violations, not "drivers".

 

[evandyk]

Actually, according to TPS data . . .

2018 Homicides 98 2019 79 2020 71
Fatal MVA 66 64 40
(no posted MVA data past 2020)

I'll admit to posting that without looking up the actual numbers. In my mind they are both about 60-70/year with ups and downs. But the panic reaction is disproportionate between the two relatively similar numbers.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Police ask for your driver's license, vehicle permit, and insurance. Shouldn't the insurance information be already linked with the vehicle permit?

Shouldn't they ask if the driver has permission to drive the vehicle, if not the owner? Shouldn't the MTO add all possible drivers to the vehicle permit. If a rental, the agreement should be attached to the permit (or removed on vehicle return). If a company vehicle, shouldn't all possible drivers be attached (or removed).

An e-mail should be sent to the vehicle owner if there is an infraction of any kind, including parking infractions. At least, this way the owner would know if the driver is behaving properly or not.

 

[lenaitch]

I'll admit to posting that without looking up the actual numbers. In my mind they are both about 60-70/year with ups and downs. But the panic reaction is disproportionate between the two relatively similar numbers.

Ya, sorry about that, it didn't post very well:

2018
Homicides: 98
FMVC: 66

2019
Homicides: 79
FMVC: 64

2020
Homicides: 71
FMVC: 40

 

[Admiral Beez]

This is an overly complicated solution where the City / province could just agree to install automated enforcement cameras at 3-4 key intersections. I find in general that Canada lacks the willpower to take a hard line where people are obviously in the wrong. Either a driver went through the intersection contrary to traffic laws, or they didn't. Automate, systematize, enforce.

Cameras and passive after the fact enforcement are little deterrence. Really, Unless they put my liberty at risk, fines aren’t enforcement at all, but just a cost of driving, like 407 tolls. Retractable bollards, would do the job. Physical barriers, rather than after the fact fines will stop people from entering the Street. After the fact, fines do nothing, but maybe deter the next time.

 

[lenaitch]

Police ask for your driver's license, vehicle permit, and insurance. Shouldn't the insurance information be already linked with the vehicle permit?

Shouldn't they ask if the driver has permission to drive the vehicle, if not the owner? Shouldn't the MTO add all possible drivers to the vehicle permit. If a rental, the agreement should be attached to the permit (or removed on vehicle return). If a company vehicle, shouldn't all possible drivers be attached (or removed).

An e-mail should be sent to the vehicle owner if there is an infraction of any kind, including parking infractions. At least, this way the owner would know if the driver is behaving properly or not.

Information regarding D/L, vehicle title and insurance are available on police databases. You are required to produce evidence of all three upon demand. It may seem a bit redundant but not every copper has direct access to the database, everywhere, all the time. Besides, if you are getting an offence notice and the police car has the current tech, the d/l can be swiped to auto-populate a lot of the notice.

If a copper asked a driver if they have permission to drive the vehicle, I can take a wild guess what the answer will always be. Why ask a question where the answer has no use and can't be validated? I can't imagine how cumbersome it would be for the MTO to have to try and maintain a current list of 'permissible' drivers for over 8 million vehicles. It could be that new 'special friend' you met last night. The last 'company' I worked for had over 8000 employees and 4000 ground vehicles. How big a permit do we want it to be? Should the TTC or FedEx list every operator they have on the permit for all of their road vehicles?

A room building full of emails writers. Quite a job opportunity.

 

[lenaitch]

Cameras and passive after the fact enforcement are little deterrence. Really, Unless they put my liberty at risk, fines aren’t enforcement at all, but just a cost of driving, like 407 tolls. Retractable bollards, would do the job. Physical barriers, rather than after the fact fines will stop people from entering the Street. After the fact, fines do nothing, but maybe deter the next time.

Bollards would be effective (and the European YouTube 'fails' are fun to watch), but trying to manage the transponders or whatever for all the types of vehicle that can go through would be a bit of a nightmare. There are over 4800 taxis registered in Toronto, not counting emergency services. What about other GTA cabs coming downtown. Would Uber demand similar access?

 

[turbanplanner]

The signs are no less clear than any other intersection in the City that prohibits left or right turns. I don't really have any sympathy. Unfortunately, the normal green lights need to remain, as taxis, police, and TTC vehicles are allowed through the intersection.

The times are basically illegible while moving on all the left turn signs in the city.

Sure, but the reality is that we can't have enforcement officers sitting along King Street 24/7 for minor traffic infractions. Just jack up the fines and move to an administrative penalty system like red light cameras -- I guarantee the problem would be solved quickly.

The issue is most people don't want more automated enforcement. In the UAE driving is the 2nd highest cause of deaths and all the enforcement is automated. Also means it's hard to flag down a cop for erratic driving because they consider the speed cameras good enough. Even the speed cameras here are only around school or "safety" zones

Bollards would be effective (and the European YouTube 'fails' are fun to watch), but trying to manage the transponders or whatever for all the types of vehicle that can go through would be a bit of a nightmare. There are over 4800 taxis registered in Toronto, not counting emergency services. What about other GTA cabs coming downtown. Would Uber demand similar access?

This. If the TTC will not even install a bollard in a streetcar tunnel I don't think the idea is worth discussing.

Police ask for your driver's license, vehicle permit, and insurance. Shouldn't the insurance information be already linked with the vehicle permit?

Shouldn't they ask if the driver has permission to drive the vehicle, if not the owner? Shouldn't the MTO add all possible drivers to the vehicle permit. If a rental, the agreement should be attached to the permit (or removed on vehicle return). If a company vehicle, shouldn't all possible drivers be attached (or removed).

An e-mail should be sent to the vehicle owner if there is an infraction of any kind, including parking infractions. At least, this way the owner would know if the driver is behaving properly or not.

Automated cameras don't hit your insurance because you can't prove who was driving.

 

[afransen]

The signs are no less clear than any other intersection in the City that prohibits left or right turns. I don't really have any sympathy. Unfortunately, the normal green lights need to remain, as taxis, police, and TTC vehicles are allowed through the intersection.

Could use a transit signal for TTC. Taxis should be excluded from through-driving King. Emergency vehicles should observe the no-through traffic unless on a call, and we all know they will just flash their lights and proceed.

I can tell you taxis need to be excluded because the current state leads to non-compliance due to unclear direction. I already think it is insane to expect people to read, logic through, and comply with the 'effective hours except weekends and holidays' while driving 30-40 kph. That is just dumb design.

 

[drum118]

The times are basically illegible while moving on all the left turn signs in the city.

The issue is most people don't want more automated enforcement. In the UAE driving is the 2nd highest cause of deaths and all the enforcement is automated. Also means it's hard to flag down a cop for erratic driving because they consider the speed cameras good enough. Even the speed cameras here are only around school or "safety" zones


This. If the TTC will not even install a bollard in a streetcar tunnel I don't think the idea is worth discussing.

Automated cameras don't hit your insurance because you can't prove who was driving.

The problem will bollards is the fact any vehicle on the tail of a streetcar will hit it or be lift up on it if the bollards start to rise as the streetcar pass x point. This will shut down the line to deal with the mess cause by the fool driver being hit by a bollard. They may work well elsewhere, but not in Toronto.

It time for TTC and the city to move to the bar signals to the point the streetcar gets their bar signal first with traffic lights still red with the bar signal turning red as the streetcar pass it just like trains and subways signals do today.. Need to have traffic lights on both side of the intersection.

As for red light cameras catching these illegal drivers, its the owner who has to pay the fine, not the driver if someone else is driving. Then there are the car renters and out of town or province drivers that the city has to chase after to the point some fines will never be recovery. Fines need to be higher than they are today, but it will be a drop in the bucket for those who can afford to right off those fines. One can look at a sliding scale where the same drivers keep getting caught regardless where it happens on the line that could end up in the thousands..

 

[afransen]

As for red light cameras catching these illegal drivers, its the owner who has to pay the fine, not the driver if someone else is driving. Then there are the car renters and out of town or province drivers that the city has to chase after to the point some fines will never be recovery. Fines need to be higher than they are today, but it will be a drop in the bucket for those who can afford to right off those fines. One can look at a sliding scale where the same drivers keep getting caught regardless where it happens on the line that could end up in the thousands..

Doesn't the rental agency eat it and have to charge the renter? Same as 407 tolls.

 

[turbanplanner]

Could use a transit signal for TTC. Taxis should be excluded from through-driving King. Emergency vehicles should observe the no-through traffic unless on a call, and we all know they will just flash their lights and proceed.

I can tell you taxis need to be excluded because the current state leads to non-compliance due to unclear direction. I already think it is insane to expect people to read, logic through, and comply with the 'effective hours except weekends and holidays' while driving 30-40 kph. That is just dumb design.

The street is EMPTY. I don't think a few taxis ore even sneaky passenger cars are causing any trouble.