King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[drum118]

The 2021 Census shows 26% of households in Brampton with 5 or more people, compared to 8% in Toronto, 14% in Mississauga, and 10% in Hamilton.

Some of these numbers are related to family members helping one family to buy a house then move onto the next family. Some of the number has to do with families having more than 4 children plus the in-laws,

Anyway, what does has to do with the Thread title??

King is a mess with lack of enforcement and know how. Unless there enforcement after any makeover take place, not going to do much for transit or the people trying to eat next to the tracks.

 

[DSC]

King is a mess with lack of enforcement and know how. Unless there enforcement after any makeover take place, not going to do much for transit or the people trying to eat next to the tracks.

Better that the DESIGN of the 'new King" reinforces the traffic rules. Enforcement should be the 'last resort' and I am sure there are many drivers who (despite the signage) still do not fully understand that they cannot drive straight down King. I suggest it is about time for the City to start talking about, and consulting on, the re-design - the plan is still that it will occur in 2024

 

[blacksquirrels]

they should start planning another light metro/subway line on King starting from Parliament connecting to the Ontario Line that then goes north on Dufferin. no re-design of King that involves streetcars will ever work efficiently or meet the actual demand of this route. when a streetcar route has more daily ridership than an existing subway line (Line 4) it's time for an upgrade.

 

[DSC]

they should start planning another light metro/subway line on King starting from Parliament connecting to the Ontario Line that then goes north on Dufferin. no re-design of King that involves streetcars will ever work efficiently or meet the actual demand of this route. when a streetcar route has more daily ridership than an existing subway line (Line 4) it's time for an upgrade.

... or, perhaps, time to realise that in some locations a subway is really not essential and that a good system will have a mix of bus, streetcar/LRT and subway (all properly integrated) and (more importantly for us) properly managed!

 

[W. K. Lis]

... or, perhaps, time to realise that in some locations a subway is really not essential and that a good system will have a mix of bus, streetcar/LRT and subway (all properly integrated) and (more importantly for us) properly managed!

...and property funded. Currently, budget cuts keep cutting needed transit improvements ever since the days of Mike Harris, and continuing to this day.

 

[dowlingm]

I have been wondering if the Ontario line construction on Queen will mean the City quietly moving to a fait accompli where pieces of KSP through-traffic restrictions will disappear because “the cars have to go somewhere” and when they think people aren’t looking the rest will go too.

 

[max]

I have been wondering if the Ontario line construction on Queen will mean the City quietly moving to a fait accompli where pieces of KSP through-traffic restrictions will disappear because “the cars have to go somewhere” and when they think people aren’t looking the rest will go too.

But the City didn't decide to close Queen Street, Metrolinx did...wouldn't this be their sinister plan to kill King's Transit Priority, perhaps at the behest of their political masters?

 

[blacksquirrels]

... or, perhaps, time to realise that in some locations a subway is really not essential and that a good system will have a mix of bus, streetcar/LRT and subway (all properly integrated) and (more importantly for us) properly managed!

those locations are not downtown cores of major cities growing at the rate that Toronto is growing and projected to grow.

Downtown Toronto
Total Area: 16.6 km2
Population Density: 14000/km2
Subway System Length: 10.4 km (15.5 km when OL opens)
Number of Lines: 2 (3)

Old Toronto
Total Area: 97.15 km2
Population Density: 8,210.4/km2
Subway System Length: 35km (41km when Line 5 opens) & (51km when OL opens)
Number of Lines: 2 (4)

Barcelona
Total Area: 101.4 km2
Population Density: 16,000/km2
Subway System Length: 166 km
Number of Lines: 12

Yonge used to have streetcars, Bloor used to have streetcars, but at some point (60+ years ago) those routes out grew them. same thing can be applied to King and Queen today. there's simply too much demand to be met by streetcar lines. trams/streetcars work well in cities or suburbs with less than 500,000 people or a population density of below 5,000/km2. I'm not advocating getting rid of all streetcars, just that King street needs to be upgraded at some point in the near future. the 504 King does not meet the current demand adequately. the King streetcar priority helps, but it's not enough to meet demand either. the daily ridership is what 84,000 per day roughly? with a light metro or subway line that would triple if not quadruple instantly.

You can see above that the population density in the downtown core is already close to or nearly on par with Barcelona. I'm obviously never expecting to see a transit system that rivals Barcelona in my lifetime, but (Old) Toronto should have roughly twice as many total kilometres of subway that it current has. if Toronto's downtown core matched Barcelona it would have roughly 27km's of subway, not 10.5 km's. Barcelona is still adding dozens of kilometres of metro to their system over the next decades. Barcelona also still has trams, but they aren't in the core they're in the suburbs where they actually meet the ridership demand.

 

[W. K. Lis]

those locations are not downtown cores of major cities growing at the rate that Toronto is growing and projected to grow.

Downtown Toronto
Total Area: 16.6 km2
Population Density: 14000/km2
Subway System Length: 10.4 km (15.5 km when OL opens)
Number of Lines: 2 (3)

Old Toronto
Total Area: 97.15 km2
Population Density: 8,210.4/km2
Subway System Length: 35km (41km when Line 5 opens) & (51km when OL opens)
Number of Lines: 2 (4)

Barcelona
Total Area: 101.4 km2
Population Density: 16,000/km2
Subway System Length: 166 km
Number of Lines: 12

Yonge used to have streetcars, Bloor used to have streetcars, but at some point (60+ years ago) those routes out grew them. same thing can be applied to King and Queen today. there's simply too much demand to be met by streetcar lines. trams/streetcars work well in cities or suburbs with less than 500,000 people or a population density of below 5,000/km2. I'm not advocating getting rid of all streetcars, just that King street needs to be upgraded at some point in the near future. the 504 King does not meet the current demand adequately. the King streetcar priority helps, but it's not enough to meet demand either. the daily ridership is what 84,000 per day roughly? with a light metro or subway line that would triple if not quadruple instantly.

You can see above that the population density in the downtown core is already close to or nearly on par with Barcelona. I'm obviously never expecting to see a transit system that rivals Barcelona in my lifetime, but (Old) Toronto should have roughly twice as many total kilometres of subway that it current has. if Toronto's downtown core matched Barcelona it would have roughly 27km's of subway, not 10.5 km's. Barcelona is still adding dozens of kilometres of metro to their system over the next decades. Barcelona also still has trams, but they aren't in the core they're in the suburbs where they actually meet the ridership demand.

Isn't Eglinton & Yonge now part of "downtown"? Generally these days, "downtown" Toronto should be considered the Old City of Toronto as it was in 1954.

Shouldn't Line 5 be considered a "downtown" underground electric railway (AKA subway)? (The area around Port Credit and Streetsville in Mississauga should be considered Mississauga's downtown, except that they used sprawl and the auto instead.)

 

[innsertnamehere]

I wouldn’t consider the 1954 boundaries to be “downtown” but rather “the city”.

 

[T3G]

I wouldn’t consider the 1954 boundaries to be “downtown” but rather “the city”.

And the old Metro boroughs are what, then?

 

[W. K. Lis]

And the old Metro boroughs are what, then?

The Village of Yorkville would have had its own "downtown" around Yonge & Bloor. It was annexed into Toronto in 1883.
The City of West Toronto would have had its own "downtown" around Dundas & Keele. It was annexed in 1909.
The Town of North Toronto would have had its own "downtown" around Yonge & Eglinton. It was annexed in 1912.

Each annexation would have included the town or village's "downtown".

From link.

 

[Steve X]

Isn't Eglinton & Yonge now part of "downtown"? Generally these days, "downtown" Toronto should be considered the Old City of Toronto as it was in 1954.

Shouldn't Line 5 be considered a "downtown" underground electric railway (AKA subway)? (The area around Port Credit and Streetsville in Mississauga should be considered Mississauga's downtown, except that they used sprawl and the auto instead.)

By the common definition of "Downtown Toronto" bounded by Dupont, no. https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/pg/bgrd/backgroundfile-114229.pdf
There is no continuous business structures/high density development to make it part of downtown. By the official map of Toronto, it is also no but it is it's own centre business district. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_business_district

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/904f-cp-official-plan-Map-02_OP_UrbanStructure_AODA.pdf

 

[W. K. Lis]

Meanwhile...

From link.

 

[PL1]

Meanwhile...

From link.

Looks like De Pijp -- tram line goes from two tracks to shared track. It works!