TOareaFan
Superstar
There is nothing wrong with the Simcoe stop other than the fact there is not need for Simcoe & University to have stops....and by eliminating the Simcoe Stop I think they are getting rid of the wrong one!
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There is nothing wrong with the Simcoe stop other than the fact there is not need for Simcoe & University to have stops....and by eliminating the Simcoe Stop I think they are getting rid of the wrong one!
Fred.S
Active Member
I agree that there are many stops that need to be removed, but I think it should also be part of a wider program looking at traffic lights, and possibly removing some, as they are also a big source that slows down streetcar (and general) traffic. I'd also support putting more pedestrian crosswalks, and making sure that stops are at a light or crosswalk as much as possible. The current study is already looking at locating stops only at lights and crosswalks, but it makes things more difficult if there is no converstation about removing or changing lights.
For example, the Victoria stop on Dundas is so close to both Yonge and church streets, it should go (despite being a stop that I use at Ryerson). However, the traffic light will still slow down the streetcar more than the stop, so I think it should go. Most Ryerson foot traffic is not heading south on Victoria, and vehicle use is low, especially since the only reason to go north on victoria now is to get to the Ryerson parking lot.
For example, the Victoria stop on Dundas is so close to both Yonge and church streets, it should go (despite being a stop that I use at Ryerson). However, the traffic light will still slow down the streetcar more than the stop, so I think it should go. Most Ryerson foot traffic is not heading south on Victoria, and vehicle use is low, especially since the only reason to go north on victoria now is to get to the Ryerson parking lot.
ehlow
Senior Member
Agreed they need to look at traffic lights as well. We shouldn't just take stops away if it doesn't improve speed because of the traffic light timings.
Forgotten
Active Member
Lest we forget how successful the Shanghai system really is
I can't believe I'm advocating for higher taxes but a 1% HST hike would almost be worth it for you to keep your promise to pack your bags and head for the greener pastures of your centrally planned paradise in Shenzhen, Guangdong, where this web site is blocked and shielded from your eyes.
ksun
Senior Member
^ I will try to keep my calm and be civil here.
How does pollution (seems to be something you are hinting) or internet freedom has anything to do with transit planning?
So your logic is: Since China is highly polluted and has internet censorship -> therefore their transit must be badly planned and there is absolutely nothing to learn from the entire country, from any of the hundreds of cities.
Shanghai's subway system basically copied from Tokyo (and London as well). Take a look at the map, there is striking similarities, the ring in particular.
Hate anything to do with China, fine. I mentioned Tokyo and NYC as well. Do you mind use some similar argument as too? They have much wider spacing too.
No matter how you dismiss it, both Shanghai and Tokyo are solid alpha+ cities since 2012, just one notch below NYC and London, while Toronto is considered an alpha city. You can hate Chinese cities all you want, the truth is, they have excellent transit.
http://www.lboro.com/gawc/world2012t.html
One thing I we can immediately learn from is each of their bus stops has the entire bus route with every single stop. On the other hand, our bus poles only say "BUS" and expect every rider to know where exactly this bus goes. I am sure you have never been to Shanghai and but if ever do, you will love the convenience of their transit (crowdedness not so much, but it has 2/3 of Canada's population). The cleanness, the technology, the stations, the condition of the trains are all world class. *they don't sell tokens or paper day pass BTW*
with regard to me going to Shanghai - I am a Canadian citizen. I can't simply just "move" to Shanghai, just like a Chinese citizen can't just move to Toronto. Just so you know, but it is too personal and off topic.
By the way, that photo looks amazing.
How does pollution (seems to be something you are hinting) or internet freedom has anything to do with transit planning?
So your logic is: Since China is highly polluted and has internet censorship -> therefore their transit must be badly planned and there is absolutely nothing to learn from the entire country, from any of the hundreds of cities.
Shanghai's subway system basically copied from Tokyo (and London as well). Take a look at the map, there is striking similarities, the ring in particular.
Hate anything to do with China, fine. I mentioned Tokyo and NYC as well. Do you mind use some similar argument as too? They have much wider spacing too.
No matter how you dismiss it, both Shanghai and Tokyo are solid alpha+ cities since 2012, just one notch below NYC and London, while Toronto is considered an alpha city. You can hate Chinese cities all you want, the truth is, they have excellent transit.
http://www.lboro.com/gawc/world2012t.html
One thing I we can immediately learn from is each of their bus stops has the entire bus route with every single stop. On the other hand, our bus poles only say "BUS" and expect every rider to know where exactly this bus goes. I am sure you have never been to Shanghai and but if ever do, you will love the convenience of their transit (crowdedness not so much, but it has 2/3 of Canada's population). The cleanness, the technology, the stations, the condition of the trains are all world class. *they don't sell tokens or paper day pass BTW*
with regard to me going to Shanghai - I am a Canadian citizen. I can't simply just "move" to Shanghai, just like a Chinese citizen can't just move to Toronto. Just so you know, but it is too personal and off topic.
By the way, that photo looks amazing.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
Definitely we have to look at stops...spacing and their relation to streetlights. I don't spend enough time at Victoria and Dundas to have a lot of observation about how it works there but it sounds a lot like what I observe daily on King with the University and Simcoe stops. This is not uncommon (quite the opposite):
WB Streetcar approaches University.....green light.
Streetcar stops at Uni for passengers coming from subway
Passengers load....light is now red...streetcar has now "stopped twice"
Light turns green, streetcar proceeds to Simcoe...green light
Streetcar stops for passengers
Passengers load...but light is now red and streetcar has again "stopped twice"
I just think that the right thing to do there is:
1....eliminate the University stops
2....keep the Simcoe stops
3....new way to go signage in the subway directing transferring passengers to the Simcoe stops
4....give the streetcar some control over the Simcoe streetlight so that after loading/unloading they have a green light (easier to do this at Simcoe than on the much heavier travelled University)
You turn 4 stops into 1 and serve the same number of people.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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Lest we forget how successful the Shanghai system really is
I can't believe I'm advocating for higher taxes but a 1% HST hike would almost be worth it for you to keep your promise to pack your bags and head for the greener pastures of your centrally planned paradise in Shenzhen, Guangdong, where this web site is blocked and shielded from your eyes.
Just saying
ehlow
Senior Member
Can we not have every single thread become a fight about China?
Den... it's not even comparable. The air quality in Chinese cities is in a whole different ballpark than Toronto. It's a serious problem over there.
Den... it's not even comparable. The air quality in Chinese cities is in a whole different ballpark than Toronto. It's a serious problem over there.
ksun
Senior Member
I agree.
It is legitimate to look at other countries transit planning (including Chinese cities) when talking about transit in Toronto, but pollution, internet freeddom are way off topic, and I don't understand why they have to be brought up every time as if they were evidence that transit there is bad.
Regarding Victoria at Dundas, it is equally frustrating. The green light at Yonge/Dundas takes forever because of the scramble. The EB 505 stops at the station, passenger get on and off, and there usually are a lot of them, by the time it is completed, lights are red again. After they turn green, the streetcar run for 20 seconds and make a full stop again.
I normally get off at Victoria (since it is closer to where I live), but based on my experience, seldom more than 3 people get off/on at that station. It is a redundant stop for sure.
The WB more so. WB stop at Victoria is in front of a delirect building with minimum space to stand. Yonge stop is a lot more spacious, and during the winter, most people will wait inside 10 Dundas E as it is warm. If the 505 becomes all door board, there is no reason to keep the Victoria stop.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Haven't been keeping up with the news from the TTC. See this link about the 94 Wellesley pilot program.
Bus Stop Poles
The new poles will focus on key information and the service provided along the route. The new design will also provide information on how to receive real time information for the next bus arriving at a specific stop.
The poles will feature more information in a standardized format. Information will include separately coloured route number modules for standard routes, express routes and routes that require additional information, specific to the service. A legend is displayed as round badges near the bottom of the stop.
Fred.S
Active Member
While the Wellesley pilot is a start, I wish they put the direction and destination on the poles too. Wouldn't be that difficult. I also wish that when a route gets converted to a new streetcar, they would upgrade the stop poles, seeing as they're upgrading everything else, including, possibly, the stop spacing, and curb cuts, so many poleshave to be reinstalled anyway.
Forgotten
Active Member
I was just putting the dots together and going by what you have said, that you would be the first one out of here if they increased the HST, and what better place than one of the cities you constantly fawn over as the paragon of planning and city building we should be aspiring to emulate.
They have their high rises, they have their bus stops, but they're the ones with the third world toxic clouds hanging over their city. The end all and be all they're not.
ksun
Senior Member
Highrises and bus stops simply have nothing to do with toxic clouds, which is clearly shown by Tokyo.
I am not gonna engage in such hostile discussion. You seem to be more interested in disparage whatever happens in China than talking about transit. Have fun with your own little agenda with someone else.
ksun
Senior Member
Good to know changes are being made.
This is what bus poles look like in Shanghai - they tell you how many buses stops here, their exact routes (such as "Wellesley st at Church st", not just "Church st"), which stop you are at, and which direction the coming bus is going on its route.
Very convenient as even for the locals, no one can be familiar with every single bus in the city. (there are more than 1000 served by more than 10 bus companies)
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RC8
Senior Member
The transit and overall transportation planning system that delivered Shanghai has shown itself uncapable of delivering a) cities without enormous amounts of transportation-related pollution, and b) transit without seriously disruptive overcrowding.
That is, you should not be so dismissive of the political process for dealing with transportation issues here in Ontario. Although our 'system' is far from perfect, its population-adjusted results are overall substantially superior to those of cities like Shanghai, Ningbo, or what have you.
You compare Shanghai with London, but London has twice as many km of subway per rider than Shanghai. Instead of investing in their public transit infrastructure, the Chinese spent the better part of the last couple of decades building massive highway systems through their urban areas.
If Transit City's progress had not been halted by the rise of a populist politician arguing for 'subways-subways-subways', Toronto's transit system would be in pretty good shape considering the local context, and we'd just be a DRL away from having a great system once again.