King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[TheTigerMaster]

But transit is not about serving the 0.5% passenger who have such trouble. If you have a broken leg, you still need to walk to the station, up and down the streetcar/subways, and from the bus stop to/from your residence. For people with the trouble you described, can I say it is equally callous to ask them to walk 200 meter to the streetcar stop at all, why not require the streetcar to pass by the front door of each house in Toronto?

We're in agreement, Ksun.

Here's an idea: expand the request stop program for those with disabilities.

 

[ehlow]

Ehlow: I apologize for being angry/condescending in my writing style sometimes - partly out of my lack of mastery of a foreign language and partly out of frustration about certain issues I think important for the well being of this city I love. I will try to be more calm and peaceful from now one. Thanks for reminding me.

OK no problem . I understand where you're coming from. I'll keep in mind the language issues from now on.

I agree: it's about finding the balance appropriate for the situation. You can go too far the other way too and have stops unreasonably far apart. The fact that the new streetcars have all-door low-floor boarding means large groups of people will be able to get on and off quickly. In addition to the fact that they are very large capacity vehicles, I think it makes sense to look at stop spacing at this point. I feel like even slight increases to average speed would greatly improve travel downtown. Having said that you'd also need to look at signals and the other things mentioned in this thread like restrictions on turning/parking etc.

 

[W. K. Lis]

While I expect bus or streetcar not to be spaced out as far apart as subway stations, I don't expect them one block apart. If an elderly person can walk to a subway station, they can walk half that distance to a bus or streetcar stop.

 

[jeffreym]

Except that the TTC routes, streetcars and buses, are closely together in the old city than in the sprawl of the suburbs. The suburbs also have cul-de-sacs and crescent roads that add additional treks (some going in the wrong direction) to get to the bus stops.

That's my point

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

.

My mother is 87 and can walk with some difficulty to the bus stop. She can do it, but that doesn't mean that she should walk an additional 200 m just because we think some "world standard" of stop spacing is appropriate everywhere. My point is simply that in the downtown area there needs to be a balance of having nearby stops vs. rapid transit spacing that is more suitable to suburban thoroughfares. It's about convenience. Transit must be convenient not just for those who don't have a problem walking, but also for those people who do not take transit, but can be persuaded to switch to transit. This is only one part of it. The other part is having service that is reliable and not overcrowded, which is a huge negative. Having dedicated lanes and better line management would help with both.

 

[dunkalunk]

Oh jeez, look at the can of delicious, delicious worms I've opened! I can tolerate 200m stop spacing, I cannot abide stops that are 75m apart. Stops like Victoria (really, it's 2 minutes from the subway entrance, source: my ENT is here) Simcoe, Power St, Denison, Callendar need to go.

In any case, I'd like to still like to see what people think of changing the signal priority to favour traffic going West on Queen and East on King and removal of all parking on the prioritized side I think it could work!

AFTER (peak weekday)


1 _|__|__|__|_ Sidewalk
2 <----------- General Traffic
3 <=========== Mixed-Traffic Streetcar
4 ===========> Dedicated Streetcar
5 -----------> General Traffic
6 ‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾ Sidewalk

AFTER (off-peak weekday/weekend)


1 _|__|__|__|_ Sidewalk
2 <----------- General Traffic
3 <=========== Mixed-Traffic Streetcar
4 ===========> Mixed-Traffic Streetcar
5 [ ][ ][ ][ ] Parking
6 ‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾ Sidewalk

 

[pstogios]

Has anyone else noticed the prominent new "no left turn" lights at King and Spadina? Most of the time they are covered with bags but they were unveiled for a day, then covered up again.
What's the deal? I thought this was a good idea to get the attention of absent-minded drivers.

Anyone? This is what I am talking about (today on SW corner of Spadina/King).

 

[PL1]

Anyone? This is what I am talking about (today on SW corner of Spadina/King).

I saw them uncovered and operating this past Saturday (July 26) driving westbound on King at Spadina. I don't often travel that part of the city by car. I thought the signs were great. I have no idea why they would go through the effort of covering them again, rather than turning them off... perhaps they're testing them?

 

[ehlow]

My mother is 87 and can walk with some difficulty to the bus stop. She can do it, but that doesn't mean that she should walk an additional 200 m just because we think some "world standard" of stop spacing is appropriate everywhere. My point is simply that in the downtown area there needs to be a balance of having nearby stops vs. rapid transit spacing that is more suitable to suburban thoroughfares. It's about convenience. Transit must be convenient not just for those who don't have a problem walking, but also for those people who do not take transit, but can be persuaded to switch to transit. This is only one part of it. The other part is having service that is reliable and not overcrowded, which is a huge negative. Having dedicated lanes and better line management would help with both.

I agree that it needs to be a balance, and that streetcars downtown should have a closer stop spacing than subways and also less than what would be appropriate in less dense suburban areas. But stops <200m apart is not a good balance.

To put this in perspective, I consider where I live to be close to transit: it's 6 min walk from the closest bus stop. That a 450 meter walk. That's more than double the stop spacing we're talking about, and it's an very very short walk. 200 meters is about 1 or 2 very short blocks, literally a 2 minute walk. I understand some have difficulty walking, but let's be reasonable, 200 m is a very very short distance.

In terms of persuading people to switch to transit, for many reasonable trip distances downtown, it is very worth the extra 1-2 minute walk to have faster service. It would actually make transit more attractive.

I would understand if people objected to stop spacing of 500m or greater, but defending stops that are <200m apart? I don't think that's the right balance.

 

[ksun]

My mother is 87 and can walk with some difficulty to the bus stop. She can do it, but that doesn't mean that she should walk an additional 200 m just because we think some "world standard" of stop spacing is appropriate everywhere. My point is simply that in the downtown area there needs to be a balance of having nearby stops vs. rapid transit spacing that is more suitable to suburban thoroughfares. It's about convenience. Transit must be convenient not just for those who don't have a problem walking, but also for those people who do not take transit, but can be persuaded to switch to transit. This is only one part of it. The other part is having service that is reliable and not overcrowded, which is a huge negative. Having dedicated lanes and better line management would help with both.

you exactly proved my point. Even an 87 year old woman is able to walk to the stop, so can the other "seniors". How many 87 year old people does Toronto have who use the streetcar often? Probably not many enough to plan transit just for them.
The world does not have 200 meter spacing for a reason. Are u saying Toronto is the only city that cares about its senior residents when it comes to transit? Others don't do it because it is not worth it for tens of thousands of riders wait more just because 5 people a day have trouble walking more than 500 meters (among the total who take the streetcars).

 

[PinkLucy]

ksun, I didn't advocate for any particular spacing of stops. I was simply asking you not to lump every person with mobility difficulties into the category of lazy. Someday, when you have more life experience, you will come to realize that not everyone who struggles with mobility is simply lazy or fat.

Anyway, carry on.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Why not just put cameras at every stoplight and and fine who ever goes in the streecar lanes? It would be just like the red light cameras

 

[TOareaFan]

Why not just put cameras at every stoplight and and fine who ever goes in the streecar lanes? It would be just like the red light cameras

Since the offense occurs not just at stoplights you might end up with a mess of cars jumping into streetcar lanes behind the cameras and getting back out before the next camera is in range....so you don't end up solving the blocked streetcar issue and you end up with a lot of unnecessary lane changing in and out of the right lane.

 

[muller877]

Why not just put cameras at every stoplight and and fine who ever goes in the streecar lanes? It would be just like the red light cameras

It's not a black and white analysis (unlike speeding or red lights). What happens to cars trying to get around a parked delivery vehicle, a TTC bus that is loading (Ossington bus), a police car running in for coffee or bikes? There is judgement in this offense and this is why it needs to have human interaction.

The driver of the streetcar is too busy driving (we don't want him distracted) so we should not ask him to do addtional work.

It really needs blitz's of bylaw enforcement officers or police. At an intersection with no left turns, just sit there and pull over every car in front of the streetcar. You could probably pull over more cars than they have time to write tickets. Do this for 2 weeks in September straight...and voila, a solution.

At the same time have a fleet of tow-trucks for parked cars and larger tow trucks for Delivery vans (or wheel locks)....it'd be interesting to see what Purolator and FedEx does if their vehicles were impounded. Tickets are just a cost of doing business...but if their customers won't get the package on time...then it's a real issue.

 

[ksun]

ksun, I didn't advocate for any particular spacing of stops. I was simply asking you not to lump every person with mobility difficulties into the category of lazy. Someday, when you have more life experience, you will come to realize that not everyone who struggles with mobility is simply lazy or fat.

Anyway, carry on.

I didn't say everyone IS lazy, but I think most of those who protest against removing some stop are doing so because they are lazy (and selfish), not because they are physically unable to walk 2 more minutes.

As I have argued several times, while there are a small number of people with mobility issues, transit shouldn't be planned just to suit their needs without considering the efficiency of the whole system.

For example, there are a small number of blind people in the city, so should the city make the investment for every single street in Toronto to be blind-friendly. No, we can't.
There are a few hundred people who are above 2 meters in Toronto, should we have laws forcing each clothing store to sell clothes specifically for them, no we can't.
There also a lot of deaf people here, should the city have staff with knowledge in sign language in each of its front office? no, we can't.

Same with transit. You simply can't make it perfect for each rider with an personal problem.