King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[ehlow]

Oh man it's a struggle. What goes through my head my way home:

"Do I want a patty, or a big 8 ounce burger, or a massive poutine, or some roti, fried chicken, a sandwich, some ridiculously cheap candy from the dollar store? Ugh... I could buy a whole pizza with the extra $10 in my pocket. No no no keep walking, only two more blocks until you're home."

And this starts from the moment I get on the subway to head home lol. But 4 out of 5 days I manage to resist my urges, so my waistline is all good



-5 is all it takes!? You horrible Canadian. I'll happily walk in the cold with a good jacket, but it's the freshly fallen snow that will annoy me to no end.

Ha ha.. I used to walk Eglinton to Bloor along Yonge, so I often got Holy Chucks at St Clair, which probably nullifies the hour of walking.

Hey now, I said I was tempted, I still walked every day in cold cold winter we just had .

Having said that, weather is really no excuse, many parts of downtown have tons of people both walking & biking outside all winter. The idea that people don't walk around outside during the winter is totally false if we're talking about walkable parts of Toronto.

 

[pstogios]

Has anyone else noticed the prominent new "no left turn" lights at King and Spadina? Most of the time they are covered with bags but they were unveiled for a day, then covered up again.
What's the deal? I thought this was a good idea to get the attention of absent-minded drivers.

 

[dunkalunk]

I was driving into downtown during midday on Monday and to avoid the mess on the Gardiner/Lakeshore I took LSB to Parkside and made my way through downtown on College from Howard Park/Dundas. This got me thinking. I remember Socknacki saying he wanted to remove parking on urban arterial roads at all times in order to improve traffic flow through downtown and also do something to restrict deliveries to evenings. With regards to running a pilot project of no street parking, I think Howard Park/College is an ideal candidate given the high number of side streets and central nature of the street (between Bloor, Dundas, Harbord, Wellesley, ect.)

I was also thinking as a pilot project, the same could be done half of King and Queen each. I've illustrated this below for Queen (reverse for King)

CURRENT (peak weekday)


1 _|__|__|__|_ Sidewalk
2 <----------- General Traffic
3 <=========== Dedicated Streetcar
4 ===========> Dedicated Streetcar
5 -----------> General Traffic
6 ‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾ Sidewalk

CURRENT (off-peak weekday/weekend)


1 _|__|__|__|_ Sidewalk
2 [ ][ ][ ][ ] Parking
3 <=========== Mixed-Traffic Streetcar
4 ===========> Mixed-Traffic Streetcar
5 [ ][ ][ ][ ] Parking
6 ‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾ Sidewalk

AFTER (peak weekday)


1 _|__|__|__|_ Sidewalk
2 <----------- General Traffic
3 <=========== Mixed-Traffic Streetcar
4 ===========> Dedicated Streetcar
5 -----------> General Traffic
6 ‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾ Sidewalk

AFTER (off-peak weekday/weekend)


1 _|__|__|__|_ Sidewalk
2 <----------- General Traffic
3 <=========== Mixed-Traffic Streetcar
4 ===========> Mixed-Traffic Streetcar
5 [ ][ ][ ][ ] Parking
6 ‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾ Sidewalk

In general, lights would be timed and signage installed to make Queen a through route for westbound traffic and King a through route for eastbound traffic. This type of traffic light timing also has a side-effect of being better operationally for frequently-stopping streetcars travelling in the opposite direction.

The 502 Downtowner and/or 508 Lakeshore would be reconfigured and extended to provide frequent service in a clockwise pattern on King and Queen with extensions in the west on Roncesvalles to Dundas West Station and in the east to Broadview Station. Replacing the removed track on Coxwell north of Gerrard to Coxwell Station would also make for more logical routing of the Downtowner in the east end, although this is probably a little far off.

While this is occuring, the TTC should also be investigating the removal of streetcar stops which are closer than 200m from eathother to help speed up everyone's trip. The stop density, particularly in Parkdale, St Lawrence, and the Entertainment District is a bit absurd.

 

[dowlingm]

Dunkalunk: "TTC should also be investigating the removal of streetcar stops which are closer than 200m from eathother to help speed up everyone's trip"

See here - http://stevemunro.ca/?p=9605

 

[ksun]

While this is occuring, the TTC should also be investigating the removal of streetcar stops which are closer than 200m from eathother to help speed up everyone's trip. The stop density, particularly in Parkdale, St Lawrence, and the Entertainment District is a bit absurd.

but people will complain and whine for having to walk additional 3 minutes to the next stop (or use seniors as an excuse, when most seniors can walk 200 meters more just fine!), and to make everyone happy, the stops are kept.

200m? I would say 500-600 meters. Toronto's density, even the densest area doesn't justify closer spacing. Central Shanghai is many times denser and bus stops are usually more than 500 meters apart.

I consider excessive number of stops the number one problem with the streetcar. Buses are equally bad. I remember when the subway is down on the weekends, the bus on Yonge makes THREE stops between Dundas and College, a 600 meter distance. And there is a Richmond stop and a Queen stop, 80 meters apart. No other city works like that.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If you can't walk 200 meters, you should be on wheeltrans. Heck, if you can't walk 1 km you should be on wheel trans.

 

[ksun]

If you can't walk 200 meters, you should be on wheeltrans. Heck, if you can't walk 1 km you should be on wheel trans.

in theory true, but people always think "It is so convenient to have a stop right beside my house, how can you take it away" despite the fact that the next stop is only 3 minutes walking distance away, because it works better for himself to have an extra stop, who cares if the whole system is efficient or not.

As I said, I have taken transit in central Shanghai and Tokyo, much denser downtowns but buses don't stop that frequently. anything less than 300 meters is simply insane - let it be a hospital or school nearby, it is just unreasonable and wasting everyone's time. I don't see Manhattan buses to stop every 200 meter either.

What's with Toronto? How has such close spacing got adopted in the first place? I am clueless and speechless. People in Toronto simply were too weak to walk, or the majority of citizens were over 90 years old at that time? Even in as far as Keele st, when density is considerably lower, the bus still stops every 200 meters! I am still stunned.

 

[muller877]

What's with Toronto? How has such close spacing got adopted in the first place? I am clueless and speechless. People in Toronto simply were too weak to walk, or the majority of citizens were over 90 years old at that time? Even in as far as Keele st, when density is considerably lower, the bus still stops every 200 meters! I am still stunned.

It's the same government that puts 4 way stops at roundabouts. And insists that all pedestrian crosswalks must be a complete light (not flashing orange). And allows parking on main streets because business' whine. And it takes years and years to add one or two tracks to a railroad line to the Airport.

There are a bunch of squeaky wheels that the City for some reason always says yes. I guess there is a reason....if you say no they will keep on bugging you.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

If you can't walk 200 meters, you should be on wheeltrans. Heck, if you can't walk 1 km you should be on wheel trans.

Easy to say, but they make Wheel-Trans very difficult to get access to unless you are disabled or nearly incapacitated. There are a lot of older people living in the downtown area and there will be more as they move into more new condos and apartments, and simply saying that if you can't walk 200 metres, you should be on Wheel-Trans is a bit flippant. If you're young and mobile and can walk 40 km without a rest, that's great. Many people aren't up to long walks but they are still mobile and they rely on the convenience of public transit with stops that are nearby. What's with this obsession on this forum that stops have to be like 1 km apart or else they're "too close"? Yes, some are and that's being dealt with. What they do in Tokyo and Shanghai is irrelevant here, each city has a different situation and has to take into consideration the travel patterns of passengers on the routes. Simply sitting here saying Torontonians are "lazy and don't want to walk" ignores the fact that people are living all around downtown and generate a lot of trips and transit should be convenient to those who aren't marathon participants.

 

[jeffreym]

Easy to say, but they make Wheel-Trans very difficult to get access to unless you are disabled or nearly incapacitated. There are a lot of older people living in the downtown area and there will be more as they move into more new condos and apartments, and simply saying that if you can't walk 200 metres, you should be on Wheel-Trans is a bit flippant. If you're young and mobile and can walk 40 km without a rest, that's great. Many people aren't up to long walks but they are still mobile and they rely on the convenience of public transit with stops that are nearby. What's with this obsession on this forum that stops have to be like 1 km apart or else they're "too close"? Yes, some are and that's being dealt with. What they do in Tokyo and Shanghai is irrelevant here, each city has a different situation and has to take into consideration the travel patterns of passengers on the routes. Simply sitting here saying Torontonians are "lazy and don't want to walk" ignores the fact that people are living all around downtown and generate a lot of trips and transit should be convenient to those who aren't marathon participants.

Plus, it's not just the distance between the stops on the bus/streetcar route, but also the walk to that street from your start point. If we had stops say every 600m, that wouldn't mean that the maximum walk to a stop would be 300m, it'd mean that the average walk to a stop would be 300m after you go to the street that the route was on.

So while a 300m walk might not be too too bad - say 5 minutes or so - if that's on top of a 300m walk to get to that street then we're talking a 10 minute walk. Would you really want to walk 10 minutes to and from the stop, say with some heavy groceries or the like, or would that encourage you to drive more? While I can easily see giving up stops 80m apart, there comes a point when distances become prohibitive, and it's important to remember that if no one is using a stop, no one is being held up by it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Plus, it's not just the distance between the stops on the bus/streetcar route, but also the walk to that street from your start point. If we had stops say every 600m, that wouldn't mean that the maximum walk to a stop would be 300m, it'd mean that the average walk to a stop would be 300m after you go to the street that the route was on.

So while a 300m walk might not be too too bad - say 5 minutes or so - if that's on top of a 300m walk to get to that street then we're talking a 10 minute walk. Would you really want to walk 10 minutes to and from the stop, say with some heavy groceries or the like, or would that encourage you to drive more? While I can easily see giving up stops 80m apart, there comes a point when distances become prohibitive, and it's important to remember that if no one is using a stop, no one is being held up by it.

Except that the TTC routes, streetcars and buses, are closely together in the old city than in the sprawl of the suburbs. The suburbs also have cul-de-sacs and crescent roads that add additional treks (some going in the wrong direction) to get to the bus stops.

 

[ksun]

Easy to say, but they make Wheel-Trans very difficult to get access to unless you are disabled or nearly incapacitated. There are a lot of older people living in the downtown area and there will be more as they move into more new condos and apartments, and simply saying that if you can't walk 200 metres, you should be on Wheel-Trans is a bit flippant. If you're young and mobile and can walk 40 km without a rest, that's great. Many people aren't up to long walks but they are still mobile and they rely on the convenience of public transit with stops that are nearby. What's with this obsession on this forum that stops have to be like 1 km apart or else they're "too close"? Yes, some are and that's being dealt with. What they do in Tokyo and Shanghai is irrelevant here, each city has a different situation and has to take into consideration the travel patterns of passengers on the routes. Simply sitting here saying Torontonians are "lazy and don't want to walk" ignores the fact that people are living all around downtown and generate a lot of trips and transit should be convenient to those who aren't marathon participants.

Of course wheeltrans should be only available to those who are handicapped. It is very expensive to operate those. You can't offer it to someone just because he/she is too fat and can't walk for 5 minutes without panting.

I still doubt people can't walk for another 200 meter. It IS easy to do. My mother is a senior (over 70) and when she visited me, she walks 2km to get grocery and come back without taking the TTC (she thinks it is too expensive). She is by no means a "marathon participants" or "can walk 40km" as you tried to sensationalize things in order to prove your point. Actually she has had cancer a few years ago and she is a tiny woman (about 100 lbs). The reluctance to walk a bit more still boils down to laziness, no matter how you put it.

"many people are not up to long walks" - not up to you mean don't want to, it is like many students are not up to hard study? Walking is the best exercise, and 600-800 meters are hardly "long walks". It is not that hard even for a 80 year old unless she/he is seriously ill. If one can't walk that much, that means he/she should walk more to get in better shape (especially true for those who are too fat too walk long distance). 200 meters more is nothing - someone mentioned grocery shopping, doesn't we need to walk a lot in grocery stores as well, probably more than 200m in total. To me it is just excuses after excuses behind this "I just don't want to walk another 2 minutes" mentality.

In reality, the percentage of people who simply can't walk for 5-10 minutes are minimum, and it is not worth it for the whole transit system to make excessive number of stops just for them. Is anyone proposing 1km spacing here at all? You keep twisting things to make other people's opinion look silly but that doesn't help your argument. What we propose is 400-600M spacing (eg: one stop between University and Spadina), is that really too long?

WHy are other cities irrelevant here? I fail to see how Toronto's "different situation" justifies 200 meter spacing. What kind of travel pattern? People walk 5-10 minutes to a transit stop, nothing is more normal than that. Care to provide any specific "travel patterns" so unique to Torontothat make extremely tight spacing necessary"? Cities are cities, people essentially live similar life. Yeah, people living all round downtown and generate a lot of trips, is that a unique Toronto thing? Don't we need to plan for efficiency as well when considering convenience?

There is nothing in what you said that proves Toronto, unlike other cities around the world, requires 200 meter spacing. There is absolutely nothing so strikingly unique about Toronto that requires such arrangement while none of the other cities don't.

 

[PinkLucy]

I hope you never have a broken leg that makes walking difficult. Or a degenerative disease like Parkinson's or MS. Oh, I guess those people are just lazy, at least until the disease has progressed enough to make them eligible for Wheel Trans.

 

[ehlow]

While I'm personally not a fan of ksun's writing style and sometimes the way he makes his points (the anger/condescension towards Toronto, Canada or North America), I have to agree with him that 400-600m stop spacing is reasonable.

Let's be reasonable here. There's clearly already some expectation of being able to walk if you're using the transit system. For example, if you're using the subway, you are expected to walk from the entrance of the station to the platform, possibly down stairs or using the elevator or escalators. If you took the bus to Eglinton station, you'd have to walk from the bus bay to the subway platform. Is that unreasonable? Clearly there must be some reasonable amount of expectation here, and the above examples are probably already >100 meters (which is a 1 min walk for average person). Say you transfer buses, you may have to walk >100m to get to the other bus stop. You're already likely walking more than 200 meters to get to the bus stop from your front door.

The Bloor subway has stop spacing of 600-800 meters in it's densest spots and has no bus service to fill in the gaps.

I think 200m as a minimum, 400-600 m average is very reasonable.

 

[ksun]

I hope you never have a broken leg that makes walking difficult. Or a degenerative disease like Parkinson's or MS. Oh, I guess those people are just lazy, at least until the disease has progressed enough to make them eligible for Wheel Trans.

But transit is not about serving the 0.5% passenger who have such trouble. If you have a broken leg, you still need to walk to the station, up and down the streetcar/subways, and from the bus stop to/from your residence. For people with the trouble you described, can I say it is equally callous to ask them to walk 200 meter to the streetcar stop at all, why not require the streetcar to pass by the front door of each house in Toronto?

In terms of transit planning, one has to consider speed and efficiency and strike a balance somewhere. Just because one is too weak to walk doesn't mean the entire transit system should be design to cater to his need and keep everyone else waiting. I mean, do you honestly think a city's transit system should be design specifically for people with Parkinson's? No country can afford to do that I am afraid. I might be wrong but there is really no other city that has such tight spacing as TTC - does that mean all those cities are cruel to their citizens?

Ehlow: I apologize for being angry/condescending in my writing style sometimes - partly out of my lack of mastery of a foreign language and partly out of frustration about certain issues I think important for the well being of this city I love. I will try to be more calm and peaceful from now one. Thanks for reminding me.