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King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

Waiting to cross King A few days ago, I counted 6 cars crossing Yonge illegally.

Then I saw a few illegal left turns onto and off Yonge up to Dundas. No one looks at signs as they are in a hurry to get where they want to go as well the signs are not the great in the first place. Having LED no turn signs is the way to go.
 
BMO said:
guys, how am I seemingly the only person on this forum who has not had a great experience with the King Street Pilot? I take it daily from St. Andrew Station to Bathurst in the mornings around 9am and back the other direction around 5:30 pm in the evenings and it's been basically no difference for me. In fact, it seems that the far-side stops end up causing way more bunching as streetcars have to wait near-side as the previous streetcar sees people boarding and alighting. This regularly requires one full light phase before the next streetcar can proceed through. This causes a ripple-efffect that ends up accumulating more and more. Last night I had to get off at John Street and walk to St. Andrews as there had been 5-6 streetcars + a wheel trans vehicle bunched up ahead all having to wait one or two light-cycles to cross Spadina and University Avenues.

I don't know what the solution is other than either giving King Street signal priority, or moving far-side stops a but further past the intersection to allow more than one or two vehicles to load and off-load, or simply move stops at major intersections with large delays to nearside so that vehicles can load and offload while waiting for the red, OR take some flexity vehicles from another line and make King 100% new vehicles so that you don't have three vehicles for every one flexity's capacity. I'm willing to hold-0ff judgement until the new vehicles start to really replace the legacy fleet on King, but I feel like this pilot is having negligible impacts on peak hour operations, and that most of the improvements are seen in the off-peak periods. Just my observations, but I'd be very skeptical if the data doesn't prove this. Any thoughts?
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It's a valid observation. Sounds like you are in a bit of an edge case - going counter direction from most of the traffic. I'd guess your experience before the trial was pretty much optimal under the circumstances, so not surprised that the new world isn't a benefit.
 
Took the king car home last night for the first time since the first week of the pilot, and it has slowed down it seems. The first week I was seeing travel times down to about 20 minutes compared to the previous 35-45 in the evening rush.. Last night was back up to around 30. Took a bit to cross Spadina and University, but the rest was quick. I "counter commute" as well, coming into downtown in the evenings.
 
BMO said:
guys, how am I seemingly the only person on this forum who has not had a great experience with the King Street Pilot? I take it daily from St. Andrew Station to Bathurst in the mornings around 9am and back the other direction around 5:30 pm in the evenings and it's been basically no difference for me. In fact, it seems that the far-side stops end up causing way more bunching as streetcars have to wait near-side as the previous streetcar sees people boarding and alighting. This regularly requires one full light phase before the next streetcar can proceed through. This causes a ripple-efffect that ends up accumulating more and more. Last night I had to get off at John Street and walk to St. Andrews as there had been 5-6 streetcars + a wheel trans vehicle bunched up ahead all having to wait one or two light-cycles to cross Spadina and University Avenues.

I don't know what the solution is other than either giving King Street signal priority, or moving far-side stops a but further past the intersection to allow more than one or two vehicles to load and off-load, or simply move stops at major intersections with large delays to nearside so that vehicles can load and offload while waiting for the red, OR take some flexity vehicles from another line and make King 100% new vehicles so that you don't have three vehicles for every one flexity's capacity. I'm willing to hold-0ff judgement until the new vehicles start to really replace the legacy fleet on King, but I feel like this pilot is having negligible impacts on peak hour operations, and that most of the improvements are seen in the off-peak periods. Just my observations, but I'd be very skeptical if the data doesn't prove this. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

You're not alone. It has not improved my travel time. It has increased my "travel discomfort" (ie: no chance of getting a seat, more crowded, hence longer wait times). I too noticed the bunching you were talking about. These are kinks that I hope get worked out soon. Also on an unrelated note, I feel the way the streetcars are designed to be packed the way it is. In many areas the walkway between the seats can only fit one person...this creates huge bottlenecks but I guess that's a different issue for a different day.
 
TheKingEast said:
It has increased my "travel discomfort" (ie: no chance of getting a seat, more crowded, hence longer wait times).
Click to expand...

How can it possibly lower your chance of getting a seat? Same number of riders, same number of trains, just trains moving faster. The only explanation is that more people started to use streetcar (provided your observation is correct after all), which is not a bad thing.
 
Avenue said:
How can it possibly lower your chance of getting a seat? Same number of riders, same number of trains, just trains moving faster. The only explanation is that more people started to use streetcar (provided your observation is correct after all), which is not a bad thing.
Click to expand...
Actually, there is some induced transit demand occuring caused by initially faster times, and it is reaching a new equilibrium. The 65K/day may even now be 70K/day.

Later on, assuming we threw as many streetcars as the street and turning loops can support, how many people per day will it take to satiate transit demand?
 
mdrejhon said:
Actually, there is some induced transit demand occuring caused by initially faster times, and it is reaching a new equilibrium. The 65K/day may even now be 70K/day.

Later on, assuming we threw as many streetcars as the street and turning loops can support, how many people per day will it take to satiate transit demand?
Click to expand...

If more people are taking the streetcar instead of driving on the same route that can't possibly be detrimental.
 
We have a problem with drivers (usually single-occupant) who think themselves elitists because they own an automobile. The peasants in the streetcars should get out of their way and don't block them on their "important" errand of getting some java or whatever.
 
Avenue said:
How can it possibly lower your chance of getting a seat? Same number of riders, same number of trains, just trains moving faster. The only explanation is that more people started to use streetcar (provided your observation is correct after all), which is not a bad thing.
Click to expand...

I'm speaking from my experience. And yes, there are more riders.
 
edwardtoronto said:
I think the Entertainment District BIA felt it had to respond if only to reeducate its members on King Street West who told the Star they didn't have a King Street BIA. A fact BTW that the Star report without any factual clarification. Of course they do not have a King Street BIA, they are in and have been in the Entertainment District BIA for almost 20 years. Sigh. I also happen to know that this BIA did reach extensively to its members in consultation phase but they may (?) have slipped a bit on communications during the implementation; or of course maybe the businesses just didn't pay attention. Imagine that.
Click to expand...

The irony of their protests is that while business fell on the first week — which coincided with a significant drop in temperature — these particular businesses were actually very busy this week and it’s quite likely that business will be up once the TTC’s 2 hour fare is implemented. Some people need to be dragged kicking and screaming out of their comfort zone, even if the new status quo benefits them.
 
A little anecdotal observation: I took the 504 from Spadina to a meeting near Parliament. I got there in about 10 minutes but the streetcar was packed the entire way. On the way back, I took the 501 on Queen to compare. It was a lot longer, almost half an hour stuck in traffic from about Yonge all the way to Spadina. The kicker though: the streetcar was nearly empty at around 3:30pm.

It’s pretty clear that people who took the 501 have migrated to the 504 since it’s like a downtown subway.

This is a good indication that the TTC should be shifting 501 capacity to deal with the new demand on King. Could they not create a new Queen/King hybrid route?

Long Branch to Dufferin, then south to King, along King to River street where it’d resume the regular 501 route. Redirect as many cars as necessary to balance ridership to acceptable levels on both King and Queen. Even on the fly, with TTC managers monitoring ridership and calling in HQ where they’d make the decisions on which cars remain 501 and which would go through the hybrid route.

Clearly, the King Street Pilot has become a victim of its own success with packed cars that are not as good PR for the pilot as you’d think. Regular 504 riders are worse off than they were before the pilot with crush capacity streetcars.
 
MetroMan said:
A little anecdotal observation: I took the 504 from Spadina to a meeting near Parliament. I got there in about 10 minutes but the streetcar was packed the entire way. On the way back, I took the 501 on Queen to compare. It was a lot longer, almost half an hour stuck in traffic from about Yonge all the way to Spadina. The kicker though: the streetcar was nearly empty at around 3:30pm.

It’s pretty clear that people who took the 501 have migrated to the 504 since it’s like a downtown subway.

This is a good indication that the TTC should be shifting 501 capacity to deal with the new demand on King. Could they not create a new Queen/King hybrid route?

Long Branch to Dufferin, then south to King, along King to River street where it’d resume the regular 501 route. Redirect as many cars as necessary to balance ridership to acceptable levels on both King and Queen. Even on the fly, with TTC managers monitoring ridership and calling in HQ where they’d make the decisions on which cars remain 501 and which would go through the hybrid route.

Clearly, the King Street Pilot has become a victim of its own success with packed cars that are not as good PR for the pilot as you’d think. Regular 504 riders are worse off than they were before the pilot with crush capacity streetcars.
Click to expand...
It's good news and not surprising. A faster route attracts more demand. That transit mall in Melbourne that tends to come up in these discussions has higher ridership than any streetcar route in Toronto. I could see King gaining significant ridership if speeds stay higher than they were before.
 
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