King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[nfitz]

The pilot has not improved my commute at all. Might be worse for me.

Don't leave us hanging. What's your commute. How is it impacted?

It is amusing to see literally the night and day difference on King St once 10pm hits. The taxis pretty much turn King St back to what it once was, congested. That exception should be scrapped too.

Are the taxis doing anything most weeknights except going in circles?

 

[MisterF]

Why is it that retail business owners are so convinced that taking away any space for cars will hurt their business? It's not just in Toronto, businesses overestimate how many customers drive in other countries too. Their fears keep getting proven wrong but they keep raising the same concerns again and again. It's bizarre.

I think any challenges so far reflect pre-existing limitations on TTC rolling stock (i.e. $$$ and Bombardier's production problems) and a lack of prior attention to sidewalks, etc. But it's a start. Hopefully this will be but the first battle in the longer War on the Car.



I can't imagine how "suffocated" it is. I have always avoided driving on King, apart from perhaps the odd weekend when I've tried getting a spot near MEC. But most of the time it suffices to talk the streetcar or - far more frequently - walk. I've been to Forno Cultura several times in fact and have only ever walked there. Perhaps I'm the exception, but just how many people are driving to indie hipster "Italian" bakeries on King West?

With respect to transit/pedestrian malls not working well in "cold" climates, I was in Sweden recently where they seem to thrive in places like Stockholm and Gothenburg. Lots of people walking around outside without dying due to lack of A/C or ambient heating. Of course, Gothenburg has Vancouver-style rain much of the time but that doesn't stop anyone. Unfortunately for a city whose ideal model of the "mall" amounts either to Yorkdale or the Eaton Centre, we don't always realize how good it can get.

Sparks Street has never taken off because for decades no one at all lived in downtown Ottawa. Remarkably, people seem to enjoy walking around the Byward Market year round - outside, no less.

Yeah, I'm not buying the idea that pedestrian malls don't work in cold climates either. Anyone who's travelled even a little can tell you that's not true. Sparks Street in Ottawa seems to have become the poster child for them being failures, but Sparks isn't even the best pedestrian mall in Ottawa, let alone representatives of pedestrian malls in cold climates in general. It was created for all the wrong reasons. Pedestrian malls should be created to deal with crowded sidewalks, not to try to attract people to empty sidewalks. In any case, William Street is much better than Sparks. Outside Canada, there are countless examples from Helsinki (a transit mall intersecting with a pedestrian mall! Run for the hills!) to Prague to Harbin, which makes Toronto winters look practically tropical. The climate excuse doesn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

As far as transit malls go, Vancouver's Granville Street is a pretty great one. Wide, busy sidewalks, a thriving retail scene, patios, nice landscaping, and no cars getting in the way of the buses. Transit malls can work quite well when they're done right.

 

[drum118]

Police issue 560 tickets to motorists on King Street over 5 weekdays of pilot project

 

[steveintoronto]

Like Ive said earlier in this thread, I quite frankly think using part of king for pedestrians is horseshit and a waste of space.

Damn pedestrians. Always ruining it for sports fans jamming up the roads and transit to get to the game...

 

[TheKingEast]

Details?

I commute from Sherbourne to Peter and back. The streetcars seem more packed than before. The trip itself is faster, but that's if I get on a streetcar. I usually walk and it seems to be the fastest mode of transportation for me. On top of that, cars blocking the intersections was a problem the last time I rode the streetcar.

Not a fan of the whole thing thus far but I appreciate the effort and eventually they'll get it right.

 

[salsa]

THIS. Agree 400%.

But the taxi lobby has basically paid off multiple city Councillors, and perhaps the Mayor, so good luck removing this exception.

My understanding (if I'm not mistaken) is that city staff are allowed to make whatever changes to the pilot they want, including scrapping this stupid exemption.

 

[MetroMan]

Well, well... look at this:

A Tuesday night on King Street and this bar is completely slammed. King Street is working like it’s supposed to with cabs parked out front and transit dropping patrons off. So much for the pilot “killing business”.

Meanwhile, earlier during the day, this is what a transit and pedestrian mall looks like when the weather isn’t trying to kill us:

https://twitter.com/metromanto/status/935739830872440832

King looked beautiful with tons of pedestrians on the sidewalks today while the weather was nice. Once people settle into winter and the planters are in place, I think we may see a return to King Street’s vitality.

 

[animatronic]

honestly after biking the King pilot, I prefer richmond / adelaide. Wide bike lanes, and you don't have to constantly stop to let passengers onto streetcars. Also better signal timing. I rode from Victoria to Bathurst this morning hitting only a single stoplight at Portland.

Agreed that R/A is better for most bikers. King only works for riding because it is empty, and you need to use a very responsive/aggressive riding style. My biggest challenge in the cycle tracks is too much other bike traffic, which means the infrastructure is working.

 

[MetroMan]

This just came to my attention:

The Entertainment District BIA doesn’t appear to understand the point of a pilot. We can’t run a study to help identify the shape of permanent infrastructure by doing a part time study.

Something tells me that they won’t share any positive feedback with the city.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Okay. I agree that if you have a motorcade with 15 or so security guards with you, you just might use cars (plural) to get to a King Street (actually Portland just south of Adelaide) area restaurant. Then again, they would be able to fit on a streetcar, if they had more streetcars.

From link.

Former U.S. First Lady Michelle Obama and wife of Canada's Prime Minister, Sophie Gregoire Trudeau, thrilled star watchers near King and Portland on Tuesday by casually rolling up to a local restaurant for lunch.

And by casually, I mean "surrounded by 15 secret service agents" – but that's not the point.

North America's favourite power besties looked easy and breezy as they walked into Gusto 101 yesterday, like two great friends who hadn't seen each other in a while catching up and sharing jokes...

 

[MetroMan]

A couple of observations:

It turns out that the Police may have ended enforcement after all, despite the deleted tweet. I didn’t see a single cop yesterday. Anywhere. I went on 3 walks with my dog along King from Spadina to Yonge and back and didn’t see any cops at all. Plenty of cars still going through the intersections.

But seeing the street in action, I think that things will start to self enforce once the planters are in place and restricting traffic to just the centre lanes. Cars won’t be able to overtake the streetcar so drivers might be less inclined to drive on King and get stuck behind streetcars for its entire length.

Here’s how that looks from John to Simcoe where the planters are already in place.

 

[pstogios]

A couple of observations:

It turns out that the Police may have ended enforcement after all, despite the deleted tweet. I didn’t see a single cop yesterday. Anywhere. I went on 3 walks with my dog along King from Spadina to Yonge and back and didn’t see any cops at all. Plenty of cars still going through the intersections.

But seeing the street in action, I think that things will start to self enforce once the planters are in place and restricting traffic to just the centre lanes. Cars won’t be able to overtake the streetcar so drivers might be less inclined to drive on King and get stuck behind streetcars for its entire length.

Here’s how that looks from John to Simcoe where the planters are already in place.

View attachment 128684

Your picture basically contradicts your hope that drivers will avoid King because it is reduced to one lane at the planters. All I see is a line of cars, which is exactly what we don’t want on King anymore.

We can’t leave it up to drivers to do the right thing and avoid King. They must be forced off.

 

[MetroMan]

It’s come to my attention that a group of King St. businesses is planning a protest and looking for photos of an empty street and empty streetcars. I was asked to participate.

We have to be prepared that the car lobby will be organizing against the King Street Pilot. Let’s have facts ready. See a busy streetcar? Share it. See a restaurant with a lineup? Share it. Lets capture the little successes.

And here they are:

Worried Toronto businesses consider protest of King Street pilot project

Some businesses on King are getting organized, aided by who else but Giorgio Mammoliti of course.

 

[ADRM]

And here they are:

Worried Toronto businesses consider protest of King Street pilot project

Some businesses on King are getting organized, aided by who else but Giorgio Mammoliti of course.

Looks like Mammo's been feeding them strange lies: "… we've cut off traffic to a main street, it makes absolutely no sense."

And a special LOL for both "Toronto's long winters" and this mindless zinger: "There are people saying, 'This is like Europe, where people get to walk around,' but the difference is we don't have the population density, we don't have the tourism and we don't have the climate, so we will never be like Europe," Mr. Nunes said.

Also, IT'S BEEN THREE WEEKS.

 

[animatronic]

I'm hearing from retailers that revenues are down across the board this holiday season. Until someone like Moneris comes out with a quantitative analysis of before and after spend for the street over the last few weeks (e.g., change in revenue vs restaurants on Queen St.), I'm not going to get swayed by anecdotes.