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John Street Revitalization

Why? Toronto has dozens of low rise neighbourhoods that have what could be described as "main street charm". So do bigger cities like Chicago and London. There's nothing small town about it.

Why what? "Main street charm" is a folksy allusion to small town retail strips. I also don't know anybody in London, or at least central London, that would consider Sloan Street or Regent Street, or just about any street inside the city as having "main street charm" as the term is understood in N.America, with implications of small town conservative values. Certainly nobody in London looks to Norwich and says "jee, wouldn't it be better if we got rid of all this city stuff and just had that."

I also wouldn't necessarily confuse "low rise" and "main street charm." Using a pure height definition, the Champs Elysee has a "main street charm" because basically none of the buildings are more than a few stories tall. Hell, even the Walled City of Kowloon would fall under *some* definitions of "low rise," but its ridiculous to compare it to generic small town main streets. Main street charm specifically refers to maintaining an ersatz, small town inspired, pseudo Victorian street front. At best a hipsterized version of Disney's Celebration village.
 
This is what I would like to see done with Richmond and Adelaide, between Spadina and University:

The sidewalk in the direction of travel widened by ½ a lane, streetcar track in the direction of travel shifted ½ a lane in a right-of-way, a bicycle lane in ½ a lane shared as a safety island for the streetcars, followed by 1 lane of traffic and 1 lane for delivery trucks or traffic in rush hours.

Alternatively, the streetcars could go against the direction of traffic so that the extended sidewalk could be used for passengers.
 
I was just walking a long John St. today. I passed by Muchmusic and saw the road blocked off for an event there. Walking there, I noticed the sidewalk seemed really tight. It was only half walkable because of the sidewalk cafe occupying part of the sidewalk. It might be better off just to get rid of the road totally for parts of busy John St areas so there could be more space for people to walk or hold events.
 
Main street charm specifically refers to maintaining an ersatz, small town inspired, pseudo Victorian street front. At best a hipsterized version of Disney's Celebration village.

I think your interpretation of the "main street charm" epithet is overwrought. If anything, what is being referred to and embraced as such here is authenticity, not fakery.

Sort of like, as it stands today, most anything on Yonge btw/College + Bloor is the embodiment of Toronto-style "main street charm".
 
By the way, if one way streets are such pedestrian nightmares, then these must be some of the most hostile and forbidding environments for a pedestrian unlucky enough to stray into the vicinity of:

Rue Ste. Catherine (Montreal)
Boulevard St. Germain (Paris)
Boulevard St. Martin (Paris)
Broadway (New York)
Shaftesbury Ave. and Picadilly Ave. (London)
New Bond St. (London)

You are dead on. I have never understood the obstinate opposition to a good one way street system in Toronto. The last time anyone proposed a sensible approach (Church one way, Yonge the other way) there was a groundswell of opposition, even the likes of Margaret Atwood showed up to chide the plan. The opponents of course used the Richmond and Adelaide examples -- pure finger pointing; it wasn't one-way that hurt those two streets, they were already back-doorish, and now they're ever so slightly more lively than they were 20 years ago, while still one-way, due to some of the developments downtown that keep people around.

I would have liked one-way Church and one-way Yonge... combined with reduced lanes and wider sidewalks on both of those streets.
 
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I was just walking a long John St. today. I passed by Muchmusic and saw the road blocked off for an event there. Walking there, I noticed the sidewalk seemed really tight. It was only half walkable because of the sidewalk cafe occupying part of the sidewalk. It might be better off just to get rid of the road totally for parts of busy John St areas so there could be more space for people to walk or hold events.

That well traveled area of sidewalk has been a problem for years, it takes up about 3/4 of the sidewalk area leaving perhaps 4' for pedestrians. I'm surprised they were given a permit that much space, or that it hasn't been trimmed back 2 or 3 feet given how busy that block is with foot traffic.
 
One way street plans are an idea whose time has come for Toronto. And the bonus is, jaywalking is much less treacherous.
 
I think your interpretation of the "main street charm" epithet is overwrought. If anything, what is being referred to and embraced as such here is authenticity, not fakery.

Sort of like, as it stands today, most anything on Yonge btw/College + Bloor is the embodiment of Toronto-style "main street charm".

Please, every time an area gets the 'main street charm' moniker attached to it, all that happens is any hope for decent modern development gets snuffed out by pseudo Victorian fakery. Some of the recent development in Cabbagetown come to mind. Or those ridiculously overpriced townhouses along McCaul. Or any of the dozens of other 'taste of the 19th century' town house complexes that spread like pubic lice through the downtown on claims of 'authenticity'.

All I want to know is what the hell is so wrong with modern materials that we have to build these urban chedingtons. Its like Prince Charles in charge of everything.
 
Why what? "Main street charm" is a folksy allusion to small town retail strips. I also don't know anybody in London, or at least central London, that would consider Sloan Street or Regent Street, or just about any street inside the city as having "main street charm" as the term is understood in N.America, with implications of small town conservative values. Certainly nobody in London looks to Norwich and says "jee, wouldn't it be better if we got rid of all this city stuff and just had that."

I also wouldn't necessarily confuse "low rise" and "main street charm." Using a pure height definition, the Champs Elysee has a "main street charm" because basically none of the buildings are more than a few stories tall. Hell, even the Walled City of Kowloon would fall under *some* definitions of "low rise," but its ridiculous to compare it to generic small town main streets. Main street charm specifically refers to maintaining an ersatz, small town inspired, pseudo Victorian street front. At best a hipsterized version of Disney's Celebration village.
So let me get this straight - any effort to preserve Queen Street's character is really meant to maintain not only its supposed small town charm, but its conservative values too? Really?

Central London has lots of neighbourhood high streets, and you can bet they're often described as charming...and planning policy aims to preserve their character. Large scale developments are opposed all the time in low rise parts of Manhattan in efforts to preserve their charm. It has nothing to do with "generic" small towns or getting rid of city stuff or pseudo Victorian anything.

What is it that's really upsetting you here - the goal of preserving the character of Queen West, or the term "main street charm"? It seems silly to get so riled up over a little phrase.

All I want to know is what the hell is so wrong with modern materials that we have to build these urban chedingtons. Its like Prince Charles in charge of everything.
So your real concern is developments, streetscaping, etc. designed in past styles instead of modern styles? If so it's a valid concern, but it's totally lost in all your rhetoric.
 
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So let me get this straight - any effort to preserve Queen Street's character is really meant to maintain not only its supposed small town charm, but its conservative values too? Really?

It depends. If the goal is to make sure Queen street looks like every other street in small town Ontario, then yes. It is conservative and lame. If the goal is to create dynamic streetscapes free from the Adam Vaughans of this planet then I am happy. But starting out with the goal of making sure Queen street stays quaint and 'main street-ish' is retrograde.

Central London has lots of neighbourhood high streets, and you can bet they're often described as charming...and planning policy aims to preserve their character. Large scale developments are opposed all the time in low rise parts of Manhattan in efforts to preserve their charm. It has nothing to do with "generic" small towns or getting rid of city stuff or pseudo Victorian anything.

You are mixing apples and oranges. Partly, its because of the overly general meaning of the term 'lowrise.' There is simply no comparison in context or meaning to a 'lowrise' street in Manhattan or London and the typical 1-2 story storefront in Peterborough. When people talk about preserving the character of a typical London or New York street, they are talking about preserving an dense urban environment with tight building massing, continuous street walls and a rather vertical street profile (the height of the street wall generally equaling or exceeding the road width). Here though, 'main street' implies a promotion of a kind of kitschy obsession with small town, 1-2 story Victorian houses.

What is it that's really upsetting you here - the goal of preserving the character of Queen West, or the term "main street charm"? It seems silly to get so riled up over a little phrase... So your real concern is developments, streetscaping, etc. designed in past styles instead of modern styles? If so it's a valid concern, but it's totally lost in all your rhetoric
The idea that places like Queen street and neo-Victorianism are the vanguard of 21st century urban design. The entire back to the future obsession with small towns in the 19th century and the totally reactionary nature of it all. It permeates everything, from this cultish obsession with trams as some messiah of transit to a Leon Krier complex about the inherent failures of large cities.
 
I'm all for infrastructure improvements and tree plantings and decking over rail corridors, and some of the ideas in that report are very impressive (though they're likely to be the first to fall by the wayside), but attempting to "manage" or "master plan" an organic neighbourhood into something that it isn't goes against all the lessons of Jane Jacobs and others whose ideas have done a lot for this city. Queen West wasn't master planned. The Danforth wasn't master planned. The Beach wasn't master planned. Queen from University to Yonge was master planned. Harbourfront was master planned. What are the more successful neighbourhoods?

The number one thing that I profoundly oppose is attempting to chase away people from a neighbourhood just because they don't happen to fit the demographic that you like. If Adam Vaughan had been around fifteen years ago, it'd be the goth kids he was trying to sweep away from Queen West to produce a "family-friendly" neighbourhood. If this were the 60s, it'd be chasing the hippies from Yorkville.
 
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The idea that places like Queen street and neo-Victorianism are the vanguard of 21st century urban design. The entire back to the future obsession with small towns in the 19th century and the totally reactionary nature of it all. It permeates everything, from this cultish obsession with trams as some messiah of transit to a Leon Krier complex about the inherent failures of large cities.

Yet the funny thing you're conveniently overlooking is...the Adam Vaughans and Margie Zeidlers out there aren't inherently uncritical advocates of neo-Victorianism or Krierism or Prince Charlesism or Kunstlerism or whatever. They may be pro-"Victorian", i.e. creatively cherishing the existing historical streetscape where it exists; but that doesn't make them pro-neo-Victorian; indeed, the tenancy of the 401 Richmond Margieopolis is enough to indicate that their natural allegiances are with or accepting of the progressives and avant-gardeists, rather than the reactionaries.

What they're opposed to is urban insensitivity--period. But it's a more nuanced opposition than it appears--indeed, when it comes to the burnt-out Duke's Cycle block, they'd be more likely to advocate a unabashedly contemporary replacement over the faux-Victorian, which'd smack a little too much of the kind of peripheral reactionary BIA parochialism you really ought to be decrying.

And, honestly, Whoaccio--with your constant patronizing reference to the streetcars as "trams", you sound exactly like the kind of insensitive chip-on-the-shoulder urban jerk that's the perfect alibi for the AVaughans and Margies to keep pushing...
 
The number one thing that I profoundly oppose is attempting to chase away people from a neighbourhood just because they don't happen to fit the demographic that you like. If Adam Vaughan had been around fifteen years ago, it'd be the goth kids he was trying to sweep away from Queen West to produce a "family-friendly" neighbourhood. If this were the 60s, it'd be chasing the hippies from Yorkville.

Though actually, bearing in mind Vaughan's 80s background as CKLN station manager, maybe it's more the inverse, i.e. like warding off the Whoaccio-esque campus clods and politicos who'd have wanted the station to be more Q107 or CFNY-like in order to be "more accountable"...
 
Yet the funny thing you're conveniently overlooking is...the Adam Vaughans and Margie Zeidlers out there aren't inherently uncritical advocates of neo-Victorianism or Krierism or Prince Charlesism or Kunstlerism or whatever. They may be pro-"Victorian", i.e. creatively cherishing the existing historical streetscape where it exists; but that doesn't make them pro-neo-Victorian; indeed, the tenancy of the 401 Richmond Margieopolis is enough to indicate that their natural allegiances are with or accepting of the progressives and avant-gardeists, rather than the reactionaries.
Maybe I am a bit harsh on Vaughan, but this city is overly enamored with its perceived Victorian successes than with how to build the structures of the future, whatever they may be. It is overly reactionary in its glorification of the past as the halcyon of urban design. How else could a tin factory converted into an artist colony be perceived as avant garde? That is pretty much the most cliched stereotype of bohemians.

Anyways, the self congratulatory obsession with Victorianism would be bearable if it just ended there. Instead, it goes further. Its not just that Adam Vaughanists can control what the city looks like, its that they can control who lives there. Who plays there. Who works there. How they travel. If Ossington becomes a lively entertainment area, then it must be stopped because the car shops -paragons of urbanity they are- are being displaced. If 905ers enjoy clubland, it must be wrong because it isn't 'main street' enough. If singles like an area, then there aren't enough families. Below you mention the Duke Cycle block as proof of the progressive credentials of Vaughnists. Yet his ideal replacement for Duke Cycles? Duke Cycles! Its all based on the totally reactionary beatification of 19th century village dynamics, where everyone lived in quaint semidetached shacks, rode quaint trams and Woodbridge didn't exist, as opposed to anything approaching a progressive and forward looking vision for an area based off of real world preferences.

What they're opposed to is urban insensitivity--period. But it's a more nuanced opposition than it appears--indeed, when it comes to the burnt-out Duke's Cycle block, they'd be more likely to advocate a unabashedly contemporary replacement over the faux-Victorian, which'd smack a little too much of the kind of peripheral reactionary BIA parochialism you really ought to be decrying.

Well, correct me if am wrong, but the current plan I am decrying is a product of the BIA parochialism you are referring to, is it not? In any case, I am not of the opinion that Toronto is fragile enough to need the sensitivity of politicians, especially not Adam Vaughan. Its not a delicate flower that will welt at the first touch of change.

And, honestly, Whoaccio--with your constant patronizing reference to the streetcars as "trams", you sound exactly like the kind of insensitive chip-on-the-shoulder urban jerk that's the perfect alibi for the AVaughans and Margies to keep pushing...

They are trams... look at a dictionary. Its not my fault that just about the entire world calls street railways trams. Might as well call me an 'insensitive chip on the shoulder urban jerk' for calling soccer football or subway metro. I don't find the term patronizing and neither does the rest of the world. Even tram promoters call trams trams, because they are trams.

Anyways, isn't this forum supposed to have guidelines about just insulting others? Its not exactly like my feelings are hurt, but it is boring to constantly be called a jerk or clod or whatever for disagreeing with you, and then be accused of having a chip on my shoulder to boot considering every argument you make is predicated on how you are innately smarter than all others.
 
It depends. If the goal is to make sure Queen street looks like every other street in small town Ontario, then yes. It is conservative and lame. If the goal is to create dynamic streetscapes free from the Adam Vaughans of this planet then I am happy. But starting out with the goal of making sure Queen street stays quaint and 'main street-ish' is retrograde.
Well Queen Street is a main street, so of course it's always going to resemble one. And yes, it has "main street charm". But it's also unapologetically urban, diverse, and anything but conservative. Preserving the built form of a successful street is something big cities do, especially in Europe.

You are mixing apples and oranges. Partly, its because of the overly general meaning of the term 'lowrise.' There is simply no comparison in context or meaning to a 'lowrise' street in Manhattan or London and the typical 1-2 story storefront in Peterborough. When people talk about preserving the character of a typical London or New York street, they are talking about preserving an dense urban environment with tight building massing, continuous street walls and a rather vertical street profile (the height of the street wall generally equaling or exceeding the road width). Here though, 'main street' implies a promotion of a kind of kitschy obsession with small town, 1-2 story Victorian houses.
No, it's very much apples to apples. Your contempt for small towns seems to come from ignorance. There's no such thing as a "typical 1-2 storey storefront" in Peterborough, or most small cities in Ontario for that matter. The typical downtown Peterborough streetscape is exactly what you describe as a typical London or New York street: tight building massing and continuous 3-4 storey street walls that generally equal the street width. Queen West could be described the same way, which begs the question - if the built form of Queen West is what you described above, and they're trying to preserve that built form, then what's the problem?

I see no evidence of this supposed kitschy obsession with 1-2 storey streetscapes in Toronto, or anywhere else for that matter. It simply doesn't exist in this neighbourhood and the master plan doesn't call for it.
 

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