I've seen the future — as T.O. goes broke

[EnviroTO]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

Some Ontario tax rates for comparison (not including the education rate of 0.296 that is everywhere).

Toronto 0.610743%
Mississauga 0.757507%
Ottawa 0.868400%
Brampton 0.943889%
Waterloo 1.033242%
Kingston 1.321339%
London 1.361139%

So when Toronto is pleading to the province and federal government they are saying "help us, we can afford our high value homes but not the tax rates that everywhere else is expected to pay". "Take pity on the people with the lowest property taxes by far". "So what if the city costs are higher in Toronto because land is more expensive to expropriate and wages are higher... we want it to be subsidized more than other municipalities".

The taxes in Toronto are low, driving over the Etobicoke Creek into Mississauga the residential property tax goes up 23%. Sure the property prices in Toronto are higher but if you can afford a higher price shouldn't you pay a higher tax? When you buy a house on Mississauga Road they don't give you a property tax discount because your property value is higher.

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

The residential portion of the education tax is 0.296% everywhere in the province. There is an imbalance in that the money paid doesn't come back to maintain Toronto schools which are more expensive to maintain but there really isn't a big problem with the tax rate. If more of the money paid for education in Toronto stayed in Toronto it would be fair. The problem is that the Harris funding formulas allow the province to pay less when residential education taxes collect more. Basically the funding formula says how much money the school board gets and the cost is paid by the property tax first and the province pays the difference out of other tax revenues.

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

stop running buses but retain ownership of them?

Busses depreciate so if a bus is not expected to see service in maybe three or more years it is probably better to sell them. Definitely cut back service on the underused routes if they can't be afforded though.

stop plowing streets but keep the plows?

Same as above, vehicles are assets that depreciate too fast to be worthwhile keeping if the choice is made to idle plows. Many of the plows are already outsourced I think. Definitely sidewalk plows should be the first ones cut. Maybe cutting back street plow service on side streets is an option.

shut down police stations?

I think that would be a security risk. If it can be done without a risk on increased crime then perhaps it should be looked at.

the city makes annual cuts but no matter what they do it's not enough.

Then they didn't cut enough or didn't raise taxes enough.

incidentally, if the boss singles out one person to give an unfair pay cut, that person has options other than just taking it.

Toronto hasn't been singled out. The funding rules the province uses for Toronto are the same as they use for other cities. Those other cities have higher property tax rates. The city does have options... they have the option of raising taxes, cutting services, or a mix of both to balance the budget. The important thing is to balance the budget and people need to figure out what sacrifices are the most palatable.

there's no good reason for every little town in ontario to have public pools while expecting toronto to close theirs.

There is a very good reason for Toronto to close theirs... they don't have the money.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

One can't equate the challenges facing rural municipalities with those of suburban and urban ones however, because they are fundamentally different in nature (and that's one thing the decision makers at the provincial and federal level often ignore, by design or otherwise).

I also don't necessarily buy the "argument" that the city must fix up their finances (that, by the way, often carries ideological overtones from the upper levels of government) before asking for help. In fact from a more diabolical angle, it is an excuse for the upper levels of government to do nothing about the fiscal imbalance (esp. re: transit/provincially mandated social expenditures/commerical education tax). Is there any proof that spending at the city level is any more or less "reckless" than their provincial and federal counterparts?

AoD

 

[bizorky]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

One has to ask why certain services were sustainable in years past, yet not so sustainable now.

Yes, pools can closed or privatized, city lands and assets sold, transit can even be privatized, police and fire stations can be closed, city staff laid-off and replaced by contractors, city services such as snow removal and garbage can all be contracted out, community centres can be shut, arts, education and recreation programs can be ended, and the management of the water and sewer system can be sold off to the highest bidder.

The result would no doubt be lower taxes.

However, what many people may want to forget is that these services don't become free when removed from the tax roll. Access to them will still come out of pocket, and in some cases may actually cost much more, making them less accessible to an even greater portion of the population.



Enviro,
Is it possible to cite where you got your tax numbers from because there are a whole bunch of different numbers floating around out there. Finding an accurate source is rather difficult (when it should not be).

 

[Ed007Toronto]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

I'm not saying residential taxes shouldn't be higher. I am for that. I find it funny that a left leaning mayor should expouse the right wing mantra of no tax increases (or in this case no higher than inflation). During the Lastman years we had no tax increases. And they wonder why they don't have any money?

 

[Brighter Hell]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

Toronto 0.610743%
Mississauga 0.757507%
Ottawa 0.868400%
Brampton 0.943889%
Waterloo 1.033242%
Kingston 1.321339%
London 1.361139%

which of course is countered by higher than average commercial and industrial tax rates.

The residential portion of the education tax is 0.296% everywhere in the province.

but the commercial and industrial portions are higher in toronto than the standard rate. the city has no control over this.

Also can you please point to all these small towns and rural municipalities with municipal pools?

cobourg, port hope, and lindsay are places that come to mind in my area. actually a few minutes of looking online came up with some even smaller towns around here - orono, newcastle, campbellford, and bobcaygeon.

 

[adma]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

One small-town municipal pool that bears noting is the one in downtown Fergus--an open-air pool right by the Grand River, funded by the Beatty family and opened in 1930. It's a true gem.

Go to Fergus and have a swim. Show your loved one your best Johnny Weissmuller moves...

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

One has to ask why certain services were sustainable in years past, yet not so sustainable now.

Because the funding formulas changed and costs were downloaded. We still have to live with it until the province fixes the problem.

However, what many people may want to forget is that these services don't become free when removed from the tax roll. Access to them will still come out of pocket, and in some cases may actually cost much more, making them less accessible to an even greater portion of the population.

I agree and I am all for a tax increase because of it. Some seem to think we can just avoid paying the bill.

Enviro,
Is it possible to cite where you got your tax numbers from because there are a whole bunch of different numbers floating around out there. Finding an accurate source is rather difficult (when it should not be).

Brampton and Mississauga numbers come from the Peel Region website, the others come from the city websites. They are the 2005 final tax rates for the normal residential rate. Kingston numbers represent central zone, and Ottawa number represent transit zone A (they have different rates in different zones in those cities because of differing levels of services).

which of course is countered by higher than average commercial and industrial tax rates.

Yes, and while the population of Toronto grows and a larger population requires more services the jobs are not growing as quickly within the city limits so the city is trying to balance a growing budget by collecting so much from businesses that many choose to locate in the 905.

but the commercial and industrial portions are higher in toronto than the standard rate. the city has no control over this.

The city also hammers Toronto's commercial and industrial properties with rates higher than most municipalities. If Toronto really cared about how business is being punished in Toronto then perhaps they should be leading by example.

I personally don't want to see service cuts... I would prefer tax increases over service cuts and user fees. However, I would accept a decision either way or a mix of both. This city council needs to show it is up to the task of running the city and they are not showing that. They are running the city like consumers with maxed out credit cards, dwindling savings, and low income growth.

 

[Ed007Toronto]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

Didn't the city recently pass a 15 year plan that will bring commercial taxes in line with those of the 905 region? This will be done by increasing residential taxes.

 

[miketoronto]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

I understand the downloading part onto Toronto.

But that aside, howcome Toronto was able to afford everything before?

Howcome when everything was Toronto, Scarborough, etc, and METRO, we did not have these problems.

My parents do not ever recall a need for service reductions or massive tax increases to cover city services, when it was the City of Scarborough. We had better service then the amalgmated city is providing.

We had snow plows come down our street within hours instead of days of a snow fall. We had the grass cut along main roads, etc. And somehow the city afforded this with the taxes being collected.

Now all of a sudden we can't(I know we have to factor in the downloading, but that aside).

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

I understand the downloading part onto Toronto.

But that aside, howcome Toronto was able to afford everything before?

Ok, quick lesson. Suzy is given $5 each day for school so she can buy lunch which includes her meal, a drink, and a snack. Her parents decide that now that they want an extra $2 a day for themselves and only give her $3 a day for school. Suzy could make the extra $2 a day herself, but she is only 9. And since the school wont let her buy $5 worth of lunch with only $3, she decides to not get a drink each day because she cant afford too.

Its math! Its fun! And if you use it, you can understand many new and wonderful things, like why Toronto has no money!

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

Now all of a sudden we can't(I know we have to factor in the downloading, but that aside).

You can't put downloading aside. There are only two reasons that Toronto is not able to balance the budget... tax increases below the growth of costs for the city and downloading. Of those downloading is probably the biggest factor however while other municipalities have woken up to the realization that 5% tax increases or more are required, Toronto has been foolishly aiming for 3%.

 

[miketoronto]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

Well maybe you guys are not homeowners. Buy why should we saddle more tax onto our residents? So that Toronto taxes become like New York, where people pay 10,000 a year in taxes for a regular house?

We pay enough, and Toronto instead should be getting the federal and provincial governments to take back the services they should be providing. Why do we need to raise takes when our federal government has a huge surplus, that they could be using to fund the services they downloaded to us?

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: I've seen the future � as T.O. goes broke

Buy why should we saddle more tax onto our residents?

Because if you don't the city can't afford the current service levels. One has to decide whether each service is worth the cost or not. If it is worth the cost then taxes need to cover it, if it isn't worth the cost to taxpayers then you have to cut it.

We pay enough, and Toronto instead should be getting the federal and provincial governments to take back the services they should be providing. Why do we need to raise takes when our federal government has a huge surplus, that they could be using to fund the services they downloaded to us?

We don't pay enough to the city to cover the costs of the city or we wouldn't be having this debate. Balancing the budget doesn't mean stopping the effort to get a better deal with the provincial or federal governments. The fact is that the province hasn't taken back what was downloaded yet, and the province and federal government hasn't provided the money the city needs to solve its financial problems. Until the province and federal government provide a better deal the city needs to live with what it has. This means service cuts and/or taxes. The province is dealing with downloading from the federal governent to the province so they don't have much money to fix the problem yet. The province might find it needs to raise taxes or cut services too... but that is life. Money doesn't grow on trees.