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Intercity Bus Services

EdDrass said:
Drilling down, the map even shows stop locations around Union. Am using to cross-check my bus info for Travellers' Aid volunteers. Please let me know if you see any errors:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-3BKs9LsybmxDYgA_ygdVBphkmufXfUONQ_-5XCFPpE/edit?usp=sharing
Click to expand...
I don't see any errors, but I'd probably note under Ontario Northland that less than half of the buses serve Union Station, but all ONTC buses to/from Toronto stop at Yorkdale Terminal. So depending on the time of day, the customer may need to be directed to Line 1 University toward Yorkdale Station, then they should follow signs for "intercity buses" or something like that.

Highway 407 station has a much simpler transfer from subway to bus, but ONTC doesn't have any ticket facilities there (maybe not even signage) which could be off-putting for unfamiliar travellers.

I volunteered as a TTC Service Ambassador at Union for a day during the Pan-Am games, and I got non-stop questions from when I arrived until midnight when I left. The most common was "Where is Line 1 southbound?" Union is really an overwhelming complex for many people, so I have great respect for what you're trying to do.
 
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reaperexpress said:
I don't see any errors, but I'd probably note under Ontario Northland that less than half of the buses serve Union Station, but all ONTC buses to/from Toronto stop at Yorkdale Terminal. So depending on the time of day, the customer may need to be directed to Line 1 University toward Yorkdale Station, then they should follow signs for "intercity buses" or something like that.

Highway 407 station has a much simpler transfer from subway to bus, but ONTC doesn't have any ticket facilities there (maybe not even signage) which could be off-putting for unfamiliar travellers.

I volunteered as a TTC Service Ambassador at Union for a day during the Pan-Am games, and I got non-stop questions from when I arrived until midnight when I left. The most common was "Where is Line 1 southbound?" Union is really an overwhelming complex for many people, so I have great respect for what you're trying to do.
Click to expand...
Would it make sense to terminate them at 407 station?
 
Bordercollie said:
Would it make sense to terminate them at 407 station?
Click to expand...
This is a really interesting question. If you're heading nearly anywhere on the TTC, you're actually better off changing to Line 1 at 407 than Yorkdale. Furthermore, nearly all of the GO bus connections at Yorkdale have equivalents departing from 407 station:

Yorkdale GO bus connection: (Alternative from Hwy 407)
- 19/94 to Square One (Routes 40/41/45/47/56)
- 19 to Renforth Transitway, Dixie Transitway (Route 40)
- 27 to Meadowvale (Route 48)
- 27 to Milton, peak only (Route 48 -> Route 21/Milton Train)
- 33 to Shoppers World (Routes 41/47/48/56 -> BT 11/511)
- 33/36 to Brampton (Routes 41/47/48/56 -> Kitchener Train)
- 33 to Mount Pleasant, [...] Guelph (Routes 41/47/48/56 -> Kitchener Train)
- 33 to University of Guelph (Route 48)
- 34 to Pearson (Route 40)
- 36 to Bramalea Stn (Routes 41/47/48/56)
- 36 to Bramalea Term (Routes 41/47/48/56 -> BT 13/15/115/Route 36)
- 92/94 to Scarborough Centre (Route 41)
- 92 to Kingston Rd through Durham (Route 41 -> DRT Pulse/Route 92)
- 92 to Oshawa (Routes 52/56)
- 94 to Pickering (Route 41)
- 19/27/34 to Sheppard-Yonge, [...] Finch (TTC Line 1 -> TTC 36/936 or 84/984)
- 33/36/92 to York Mills (TTC Line 1 -> TTC 94)

The only destinations where Yorkdale is significantly more convenient are Kingston, Napanee, Belleville, Trenton, Port Hope, thanks to the once-daily Megabus service from Yorkdale (the rest of Megabus services depart from Union). So there is a decent case for cutting service back to 407.

But rather than cutting ONTC back, my thought is that the GTA terminus for Ontario Northland should be changed to Pearson Airport. That would open up a major new market for ONTC, since passengers with luggage are disproportionately dissuaded by transfers. ONTC currently runs 7 daily round trips from Barrie to Yorkdale, they could just as easily be running 7 daily roundtrips from Barrie to Pearson. GO currently doesn't serve the Barrie-Pearson market very well, due to the lack of connection between the Barrie Train and the 407 buses.

But before creating a transfer for most of their existing customers, ONTC need to work on their integration with the TTC and GO Transit. You should be able to book a combined ONTC+GO ticket on the ONTC website, and there should be some discount compared to buying the tickets separately (or at least the Presto discount). Combined ticketing with the TTC is a bit harder due to the Presto fare gates, but they could at least provide estimated trip plans via Line 1 to Yorkdale and Union via their website rather than just saying "sorry that trip is not possible" like they currently do for the trips which terminate at Yorkdale.
 
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Last week, I took the long route from Toronto to London (via GO Transit and PC Connect) and took the new Onex bus back.

It was largely an experiment to try some of the new carriers, but I wasn’t that impressed by Onex.

seanmarshall.ca

The long way to London

New transit options make it easier to get around Southwestern Ontario. But as new carriers enter the market, it is wise to expect the unexpected.
seanmarshall.ca seanmarshall.ca
 
reaperexpress said:
This is a really interesting question. If you're heading nearly anywhere on the TTC, you're actually better off changing to Line 1 at 407 than Yorkdale. Furthermore, nearly all of the GO bus connections at Yorkdale have equivalents departing from 407 station:

Yorkdale GO bus connection: (Alternative from Hwy 407)
- 19/94 to Square One (Routes 40/41/45/47/56)
- 19 to Renforth Transitway, Dixie Transitway (Route 40)
- 27 to Meadowvale (Route 48)
- 27 to Milton, peak only (Route 48 -> Route 21/Milton Train)
- 33 to Shoppers World (Routes 41/47/48/56 -> BT 11/511)
- 33/36 to Brampton (Routes 41/47/48/56 -> Kitchener Train)
- 33 to Mount Pleasant, [...] Guelph (Routes 41/47/48/56 -> Kitchener Train)
- 33 to University of Guelph (Route 48)
- 34 to Pearson (Route 40)
- 36 to Bramalea Stn (Routes 41/47/48/56)
- 36 to Bramalea Term (Routes 41/47/48/56 -> BT 13/15/115/Route 36)
- 92/94 to Scarborough Centre (Route 41)
- 92 to Kingston Rd through Durham (Route 41 -> DRT Pulse/Route 92)
- 92 to Oshawa (Routes 52/56)
- 94 to Pickering (Route 41)
- 19/27/34 to Sheppard-Yonge, [...] Finch (TTC Line 1 -> TTC 36/936 or 84/984)
- 33/36/92 to York Mills (TTC Line 1 -> TTC 94)

The only destinations where Yorkdale is significantly more convenient are Kingston, Napanee, Belleville, Trenton, Port Hope, thanks to the once-daily Megabus service from Yorkdale (the rest of Megabus services depart from Union). So there is a decent case for cutting service back to 407.

But rather than cutting ONTC back, my thought is that the GTA terminus for Ontario Northland should be changed to Pearson Airport. That would open up a major new market for ONTC, since passengers with luggage are disproportionately dissuaded by transfers. ONTC currently runs 7 daily round trips from Barrie to Yorkdale, they could just as easily be running 7 daily roundtrips from Barrie to Pearson. GO currently doesn't serve the Barrie-Pearson market very well, due to the lack of connection between the Barrie Train and the 407 buses.

But before creating a transfer for most of their existing customers, ONTC need to work on their integration with the TTC and GO Transit. You should be able to book a combined ONTC+GO ticket on the ONTC website, and there should be some discount compared to buying the tickets separately (or at least the Presto discount). Combined ticketing with the TTC is a bit harder due to the Presto fare gates, but they could at least provide estimated trip plans via Line 1 to Yorkdale and Union via their website rather than just saying "sorry that trip is not possible" like they currently do for the trips which terminate at Yorkdale.
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With the time it takes to go from 407 Station to downtown and then back, the bus could be better used to head back up north, instead of being stuck in Toronto traffic down the 400, to the 401, down Avenue Rd.
 
Bordercollie said:
With the time it takes to go from 407 Station to downtown and then back, the bus could be better used to head back up north, instead of being stuck in Toronto traffic down the 400, to the 401, down Avenue Rd.
Click to expand...

Going to Pearson makes a lot of sense, as long as the bus takes the 407 between Jane Street at Highway 407 Station and Highway 427, especially as there are several bus operators based nearby (like Coach Canada/Megabus) where it can arrange storage and servicing. I'd get rid of the King City stop, though.
 
ShonTron said:
Going to Pearson makes a lot of sense, as long as the bus takes the 407 between Jane Street at Highway 407 Station and Highway 427, especially as there are several bus operators based nearby (like Coach Canada/Megabus) where it can arrange storage and servicing. I'd get rid of the King City stop, though.
Click to expand...
Hop back on the 407. Takes 15min to the airport.
 
ShonTron said:
Going to Pearson makes a lot of sense, as long as the bus takes the 407 between Jane Street at Highway 407 Station and Highway 427, especially as there are several bus operators based nearby (like Coach Canada/Megabus) where it can arrange storage and servicing.
Click to expand...
I figure that they could choose the route between Hwy 407 station and Pearson Airport in real time depending on traffic conditions and bus punctuality. No point paying the toll on the 407 if your bus is on time and traffic is moving okay on the 401.

ShonTron said:
I'd get rid of the King City stop, though.
Click to expand...
Buses only serve King City station if they are connecting to a GO bus/train which doesn't go all the way to Barrie Allandale station. The problem is that the transfer times are often nonsensically short, which often makes these connections unusuable.

The use of King City station should naturally decrease on its own as GO extends more services to Barrie Allandale. Next week's new GO train schedule extends several additional trains to Barrie, which could allow for some connections to be moved up to Barrie, except:
- ONTC uses the same bus timetable on weekdays as on weekdays, even though the GO Train timetables are quite different
- ONTC doesn't update their timetables simultaneously with GO Transit. This may be due to GO Transit not sharing the new train timetables sufficiently far in advance.

Below I have compiled the current weekday northbound ONTC timetable, showing the nearest previous GO service. The 13:53 GO Train now extends all the way to Barrie, so the 14:00 ONTC bus from Yorkdale could connect to it there instead of King City.
Capture1.JPG


But on weekends that train doesn't extend all the way to Barrie, so it would still need to connect at King City. Meanwhile the 8:30 ONTC bus from Yorkdale stops at King City even though the connecting GO bus doesn't run on weekends.
2.JPG


Here's what I would do with the ONTC weekday timetable:
3.JPG

Changes:
- All buses originate at Pearson Airport except for the northbound overnight trip, which runs from Union and connects to GO Route 40 at Hwy 407.
- All buses connect to a GO Train at Allandale if available, or at King City if not. Connection times are at least 10 minutes.
 
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reaperexpress said:
I don't see any errors, but I'd probably note under Ontario Northland that less than half of the buses serve Union Station, but all ONTC buses to/from Toronto stop at Yorkdale Terminal. So depending on the time of day, the customer may need to be directed to Line 1 University toward Yorkdale Station, then they should follow signs for "intercity buses" or something like that.

Highway 407 station has a much simpler transfer from subway to bus, but ONTC doesn't have any ticket facilities there (maybe not even signage) which could be off-putting for unfamiliar travellers.

I volunteered as a TTC Service Ambassador at Union for a day during the Pan-Am games, and I got non-stop questions from when I arrived until midnight when I left. The most common was "Where is Line 1 southbound?" Union is really an overwhelming complex for many people, so I have great respect for what you're trying to do.
Click to expand...
Aha -- was not clued in to the extent of these "short turns". I've added notes to this effect and will let the volunteers know of your message -- thank you. -ed.
 
ShonTron said:
Last week, I took the long route from Toronto to London (via GO Transit and PC Connect) and took the new Onex bus back.

It was largely an experiment to try some of the new carriers, but I wasn’t that impressed by Onex.

seanmarshall.ca

The long way to London

New transit options make it easier to get around Southwestern Ontario. But as new carriers enter the market, it is wise to expect the unexpected.
seanmarshall.ca seanmarshall.ca
Click to expand...

Thanks @ShonTron for sharing your experience with Onex. I took Onex in early May from London VIA to Downtown Toronto. The one difference is that I rode on a Greyhound-size bus, similar to the one on the Onex Facebook page, below. There were probably 15-20 passengers onboard. Perhaps they alternate between bus types depending on demand?

1654634121571.png

Source
 
Yes, that's my guess. There's a big difference between being stuffed into a van, and having a proper highway coach.

That's an interesting photo, which confirms for me why the last trip of the night from London goes to the airport, and then to Bramalea City Centre, rather than downtown. That's the Esso at West Drive and Clark Boulevard, so it appears the buses are serviced and stored either at the Brampton Transit Clark Garage, or somewhere nearby.
 
ShonTron said:
Yes, that's my guess. There's a big difference between being stuffed into a van, and having a proper highway coach.

That's an interesting photo, which confirms for me why the last trip of the night from London goes to the airport, and then to Bramalea City Centre, rather than downtown. That's the Esso at West Drive and Clark Boulevard, so it appears the buses are serviced and stored either at the Brampton Transit Clark Garage, or somewhere nearby.
Click to expand...
It would be nice if GO would bring back more trains to Kitchener, considering how big the communities around it such as Guelph are.
 
Bordercollie said:
It would be nice if GO would bring back more trains to Kitchener, considering how big the communities around it such as Guelph are.
Click to expand...
They did.

There are currently 9 daily GO train round trips from Kitchener, compared to 8 pre-pandemic. The all-time record was in September 2021, with 10 GO round trips per day. That timetable was basically the same as today's, but with one extra trip in the peak direction. Here's a comparison between that timetable and the current one:
Capture1.JPG

Capture2.JPG


Capture3.JPG

Capture4.JPG
 
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