News   Apr 26, 2024
 366     0 
News   Apr 26, 2024
 328     0 
News   Apr 26, 2024
 512     0 

Intercity Bus Services

A factor of the bus demise in the West is class-race issues you won't see very openly discussed.

And the way customers ended up being treated. I rode a few buses in the Prairies 3 or 4 years ago. Following the head-sawed-off-bus-stop incident, they had instituted strict but primitive screening. You would stand in line while all your fellow passengers watched an inspector go through your luggage item by item, including opening your toiletries kit and pulling items out.

You only do that once or twice before you start renting cars, if you can.
 
That has nothing to do with taxes and everything to do with the lack of a subsidy for those routes.

Taxes and subsidies are not distinct concepts. They are different directions on the same spectrum. In other words "lowering taxes" and "increasing subsidies" are effectively the same thing, merely with different administration methods.

Depending on your perspective, the absence of tax can itself be a subsidy, given that the government may be providing a service without recouping a cost for it.

It wouldn't make sense for the government to give money to a bus company, and then take it back through tax on bus tickets. Rather, before giving money to the bus company, the government should first stop taking money from it. That way the pretty much 100% of the lost revenue from taxes actually goes to the bus company. With a formal 'subsidy', some of that money would be lost in overhead and administration for the subsidy itself, which reduces the benefit-per-taxpayer-dollar.

This is the same reason we don't have any tax on milk at the grocery store. It wouldn't make sense to give money to farmers, but then take it back by jacking up the price of their products.

Small bus companies like Kasper or Hammond are an admirable asset in our rural communities, but they struggle to provide affordable service. Dropping the 13% tax will allow bus companies to survive on less-travelled routes just like an administration-based 'subsidy' would. If pre-tax ticket prices remain unchanged, tickets actually become much cheaper to riders, which will increase ridership, allowing routes to survive which previously wouldn't have had enough passengers. Alternatively, if ticket prices are increased to partially eat up the savings, the break-even point on a given bus trip will occur at a smaller number of passengers, also allowing the company to survive on routes which previously wouldn't have been viable.
 
Last edited:
I think you will get smaller operators filling in the routes where there is demand. Greyhound is a big company with a lot of large overhead costs. One of the primary ones is those large and expensive Greyhound Depots. Those things cost a fortune to maintain and staff and a small operator would just use a city bus stop where tickets are bought on-line ahead of time. Greyhound also uses very large buses while smaller operators would use more fuel efficient and economical small ones. Greyhound is also unionized and these small operators will be more family-run businesses. Greyhound also is an old company and has a lot of pension commitments which also drain the bottom line.
 
A factor of the bus demise in the West is class-race issues you won't see very openly discussed. .

This is a very good point and something that is not an issue in the Corridor or even much in Atlantic Canada. In the West, Greyhound was not only seen as the lowest common denominator but also, and far more importantly, a Native shuttle. Natives take the bus which is why many non-Natives avoid it and due to the West having a far larger and more visible Native population than Southern Ont/Que and the Atlantic, it`s a big issue. It gave Greyhound and her depots a reputation as being slum centers and even dangerous.

We can sit here and say they we are less bigoted than Americans but the reality is that just as white Americans don`t want to be associated with urban transit buses which are seen as transportation for poor Blacks, Canadians {especially in the West and Northern Ont/Que} don`t want to be associated with Greyhound which is seen as transportation for poor Natives.
 
This is a very good point and something that is not an issue in the Corridor or even much in Atlantic Canada.
And yet Ontario has more first nations population than any other province. Quebec has more that Saskatchewan. Newfoundland and Nova Scotia both have more First Nations/Inuit/Metis than either Nunavut or North West Territories has people ... New Brunswick more than the NWT.

Perhaps western white Canadians are simply more racist? Who'd care what the person sitting beside you was?
 
I think you will get smaller operators filling in the routes where there is demand. Greyhound is a big company with a lot of large overhead costs. One of the primary ones is those large and expensive Greyhound Depots. Those things cost a fortune to maintain and staff and a small operator would just use a city bus stop where tickets are bought on-line ahead of time. Greyhound also uses very large buses while smaller operators would use more fuel efficient and economical small ones. Greyhound is also unionized and these small operators will be more family-run businesses. Greyhound also is an old company and has a lot of pension commitments which also drain the bottom line.

In Western Canada, only Calgary remained as the big Greyhound depot. The downtown Winnipeg terminal was closed and replaced by a smaller depot by the airport. The Edmonton terminal was closed and sold off, and Greyhound moved to the VIA Station, which has no transit access. In Vancouver, Greyhound served the main VIA/Amtrak station, which has bus bays - a rare transit-accessible fully intermodal facility). In Saskatoon and Regina, Greyhound used the STC terminals, before Brad Wall destroyed STC and sold off its assets. Greyhound moved to a truck stop in Saskatoon's outskirts, and a car rental kiosk at Regina's airport. In Sudbury, Greyhound eventually moved from the dilapidated former A&W that was its depot to ONTC's terminal, in a converted Saturn dealership.

The only depots in Canada that I believe Greyhound still owns and operates are those in London, Red Deer, Lethbridge, and Calgary. They had many more -- in Guelph, Sudbury, Windsor, etc. They'd pay charges towards the costs of maintaining the terminals in Toronto (owned by the TTC) and Ottawa, and places like Vancouver, Montreal, etc.
 
Last edited:
Here's my Ontario Intercity bus map for 2018 - showing the new Ontario Northland services west of Sudbury as well as the proposed elimination of Greyhound service west of Subdury.
BusOntario3.jpg

PDF version is here.
Last year's version is here.

The new Ontario Northland routes to Manitoulin Island are interesting because they all terminate in South Baymouth, a tiny town where there's nothing other than the Chee-Cheemaun Ferry terminal. But the schedules don't seem to be timed to meet up with the ferry as far as I can tell.

At the moment with both Greyhound and Ontario Northland operating west of Sudbury, there's surprisingly practical bus service between Espanola and Sudbury, where the Sault Ste Marie services and Manitoulin Island services overlap.

Screen Shot 2018-07-13 at 00.07.49.png

GLC = Greyhound Lines Canada
ONTC = Ontario Northland

I don't know the run numbers for Ontario Northland because they no longer seem to be posting their timetables on their website. I guess they're following the trend of bus company websites making it harder and harder to figure out what services the bus company actually runs.
 

Attachments

  • Screen Shot 2018-07-13 at 00.07.49.png
    Screen Shot 2018-07-13 at 00.07.49.png
    45.7 KB · Views: 557
  • BusOntario3.jpg
    BusOntario3.jpg
    75.9 KB · Views: 743
Last edited:
At least Northland has a decent map of where all their bus stops and terminals are. You can pick out the routes their buses take quite easily.

The new Manitoulin Island services are interesting. I am surprised that they're running all the way south to South Baymouth -- Little Current is the only real town on the island, with Gore Bay and Mindemoya barely registering. I wonder if ONTC has smaller vehicles, and I'm surprised they chose to serve Manitoulin over Elliot Lake.
 
The new Ontario Northland routes to Manitoulin Island are interesting because they all terminate in South Baymouth, a tiny town where there's nothing other than the Chee-Cheemaun Ferry terminal. But the schedules don't seem to be timed to meet up with the ferry as far as I can tell.

The way I read the schedule South Baymouth is just the bottom of the loop of communities on the island, and the schedule has it arriving 15 after the ferry in the morning but 50 minutes before the evening docking, which seems unfortunate but don't know if they did any demographics to see if there was any business to be expected from the ferry anyway. Serving small communities is supposed to be the strength and hallmark of bus service.

It seems the route had to be adjusted over concerns of weight limits on an old bridge.
 
At least Northland has a decent map of where all their bus stops and terminals are. You can pick out the routes their buses take quite easily.

The new Manitoulin Island services are interesting. I am surprised that they're running all the way south to South Baymouth -- Little Current is the only real town on the island, with Gore Bay and Mindemoya barely registering. I wonder if ONTC has smaller vehicles, and I'm surprised they chose to serve Manitoulin over Elliot Lake.
They were running a 35-foot Temsa coach as a trial on the Manitoulin service. I'm not sure if that's still the case, though.
 
The way I read the schedule South Baymouth is just the bottom of the loop of communities on the island, and the schedule has it arriving 15 after the ferry in the morning but 50 minutes before the evening docking, which seems unfortunate but don't know if they did any demographics to see if there was any business to be expected from the ferry anyway. Serving small communities is supposed to be the strength and hallmark of bus service.
Given that both the ferry and the bus are run by different provincial crown corporations under the authority of the
Minister of Northern Development and Mines, you'd think they'd work hard to make a through service!

For some reason I always thought the ferry WAS part of Ontario Northland - but that's clearly not ever been the case ... I must have falsely remembered the big Ontario logo that used to be on the side of it, looking at old photos. Odd ... the ferry corporation runs the Pelee Island ferries? And a very short one in Moosonee. But not the ones in the Kingston area ... which are instead run directly by the Ministry of Transportation (two routes), and three different munipalities (three route) - http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/ontario-511/ferries.shtml How odd ...

Growing up in Kingston, one got the impression that ferries were a common thing, as they were everywhere.
 
For some reason I always thought the ferry WAS part of Ontario Northland - but that's clearly not ever been the case ... I must have falsely remembered the big Ontario logo that used to be on the side of it, looking at old photos.
.

Actually, the Tobermory ferry was owned by ONTC from 1974 to 2002.... see here.

There’s no more reason for every ferry to be run by the same agency as there would be for every municipal bus to be run by the same agency. Happily, Ontario has avoided the debacles that BC Ferries has delivered over the years. We get by with Hydro and transit agencies to create scandals, that’s sufficient.

- Paul
 

Back
Top