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Hydrogen Economy General

Not sure why you would dismiss battery, as every hydrogen train is also going to be carrying a lot of batteries to even function.

Net zero carbon does not mean hydrogen. Biofuel or other synthetic fuels may be more competitive.
 
For instance, at 250 Wh/kg, you could get ~25MWh in a rail car weight envelope. If a typical train hauls 3000 tons of freight 500 mi on 3000 gallons of diesel, if the diesel to electric conversion efficiency is 50%, it means it takes 60MWh of electric energy to complete that journey. You could add 3 cars packed with batteries to accomplish that, and swap them for 3 charged cars to continue the journey, with those batteries being ~10% of the weight of the train. Put another way, a ton of batteries can move itself about 6000 miles on the energy it can store.

Such a battery car would be pricey ($2.5M cost of batteries at $100/kWh) but if a railway could charge and discharge such a car once every 2 days, it would have a pretty decent payback of under 5 years (depending on cost of power, charging infrastructure, and the fuel it is displacing). Hydrogen will always have to contend with batteries as batteries are 2.5x more efficient kWh in to kWh out. Hydrogen is hoping to be able to capitalize on nearly-free power due to renewables oversupply, but a battery rail car could be just as ready to take advantage of free power to recharge. Hydrogen only wins for longer term storage or applications where weight is critical.
 
Updates............ Alstom hydrogen trains will go into series manufacturing this year. They state that it future is very bright as 5600 diesel locomotives will have to be replaced by zero-emissions trains by 2035 in Western Europe alone. We often think of Germany as having overwhelmingly overhead powered trains but such is not the case. Only 10,000 km of Germany`s 33,000 km of track are electrified.

To exemplify how train manufacturers see hydrogen being deployed on a massive scale, in 4 short years all major passenger train companies will be offering hydrogen trains including Alstom, Siemens, Talgo, Stadler, CCRW, Hitachi,, and Hyundai-Rotem.
 
There is news out of Germany that is truly monumental and has the potential to be completely transformative.

Germany's powerhouse steel producer Saarstahl is beginning pilot projects {and hopes to begin mass by production by 2024} to transform it's steel production over to zero emissions hydrogen. Right now, of course, all steel production ,including recycled relies, upon polluting coal or NG. Electricity/batteries are completely useless as they simply don't burn at the high temperatures required but hydrogen does. They are beginning to use Green hydrogen from windmills as their source of power.

As much as we like to feel all touchy-feely about going electric, the reality is that ALL of the steel required for these new non-polluting cars/trucks/ships/trains/planes/agricultural equipment are all made using high emitting sources of power. Obviously not only adds to climate change but also general pollution due to coal having high levels of particulate matter. This is when we will see REAL reductions in our GHG emissions as the entire supply change increases we can have complete industries transform over and all the other industries they support as opposed to the piece meal system we have now.

Seeing all those zero emitting Teslas, catenary trains, electric buses, and even windmills may make us feel all misty but they one thing in common, they result in huge amount of emissions to produce. This is to say nothing of the steel and glass for those shiny new condo towers and the reduction of the mining and transportation to get it there.
 
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ssiguy2 said:
Seeing all those zero emitting Teslas, catenary trains, electric buses, and even windmills may make us feel all misty but they one thing in common, they result in huge amount of emissions to get there.
Click to expand...

Yes, whereas building fossil/hydrogen powered vehicles is completely emissions free. Oh the complete folly of the electric car crowd!
 
ssiguy2 said:
Seeing all those zero emitting Teslas, catenary trains, electric buses, and even windmills may make us feel all misty but they one thing in common, they result in huge amount of emissions to get there.
Click to expand...

Where do you come up with this BS?

Tesla literally builds solar plants and wind farms besides their gigafactories. And buys clean power where they can't self supply enough.

If we're talking about battery packs for trains built in Europe, we're also talking about a much cleaner grid than China. So the emissions embedded in manufacturing are much lower.

ssiguy2 said:
This is to say nothing of the steel and glass for those shiny new condo towers and the reduction of the mining and transportation to get it there.
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Cause putting all of them in single family homes with 3x the square footage involves less emissions?

Hydrogen has its place in the post-carbon future. But you're really embarassing yourself here with these factless assertions.
 
If my assertions are 'factless' then I propose you go out and try buy a car/TV/stereo/pop or food can/condo or go to the grocery store and buy food , clothes or gas and get back to us and tell us how you are getting along.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Seeing all those zero emitting Teslas, catenary trains, electric buses, and even windmills may make us feel all misty but they one thing in common, they result in huge amount of emissions to produce.
Click to expand...
"Huge" is an exaggeration. BEV cars have very fast cross-over point in terms of having lower lifecycle emissions than ICE vehicles, regardless of grid mix.

Hydrogen for steel making will likely make sense. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that hydrogen will have a role in industrial processes in a future decarbonized world. It just won't be used in passenger vehicles, particularly cars. That technology is completely DOA.
 
When I state cars, I don't mean how they are powered by rather how they are built. All that steel requires either natural gas or coal to manufacture/recycle and getting rid of those 2 fossil fuels is paramount if we are to meet net zero.

As I stated, it is when the entire supply chain becomes zero emitting that we will see REAL across the board emissions reduction as opposed to the piece meal system we have now.
 
Couple interesting hydrogen train developments for NA:

The Quebec government announced yesterday that they will bring in NA's first hydrogen train for the regional summer service to Charlevoix. San Bernardino has also this week got confirmation of it's new funding for it's commuter rail service that will also use hydrogen commuter trains and be the US's first system and come into operation later next year.

One of the interesting things is that Quebec will use the Alstom hydrogen trains while SB will use the new Stadler. This will allow other cities to make better decisions about the capabilities and reliabilities of each manufacturer. Hopefully the next hydrogen train in the US will be with Siemens. I can definitely see this as the US infrastructure bill puts a heavy emphasis on domestic content and Siemens already has a plant in Sacramento which is where Calgary & Edmonton get their light rail vehicles.

The Alstom trains have a top speed of 140/km hour, Stadler 130, and Siemens 160.
 
Alstom is actively marketing Hydrogen as a zero-carbon solution to Canadian passenger train service.

"The Canadian loaner runs from Montmorency Falls in Quebec City to Baie-Saint-Paul — a two-and-a-half hour trip — on Wednesdays to Sundays through September 30th. The train has a top speed of 140 km/h (87 mph) and can carry up to 120 people in its two passenger cars. The French company Alstom, which makes the train, says its acceleration and braking performance is comparable to standard diesel-engine trains — sans the emissions. While much of Europe uses trains with electric rails or overhead wires, hydrogen trains are ideal for places like the Canadian countryside, with its long distances and relatively low commuter density. (Much of the US would fit that bill as well.)"​

www.engadget.com

North America’s first hydrogen-powered train debuts in Canada

This summer, North America’s first hydrogen-powered train began traveling across the Canadian countryside. The French passenger train is a short-term demonstration, running through the end of September, that aims to spark adoption in Canada and the US. “I think the most important thing that’s...
www.engadget.com www.engadget.com
 
Modernistic hydrogen trains are cool. However if they cost much more than regular diesel trains of similar capacity, then the latter might actually do a better job of reducing carbon emission.

If the given pool of money can support either 1 hydrogen train route or 2 diesel train routes, then the latter might cut more carbon by taking more cars out of the road, even though diesel trains emit some on their own.
 
^The technology is coming along, but a quantum leap in power output is still needed.

Same thing with recent announcements about hydrogen powered cruise ships - when one reads the fine print, the hydrogen cells being installed are low powered and replace auxiliary diesels, but not the prime movers - yet.

The Quebec implementation is great, because it's a good proving ground yet not anywhere that would inconvenience a major railroad if there are reliability or teething issues. One to watch, for sure.

- Paul
 
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