G
ganjavih
Guest
That's like saying it's the bank customer's responsibility not to rob the bank... the real world don't work that way. I agree with Canuck's post.
|
|
|
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
S
SD2
Guest
That's like saying it's the bank customer's responsibility not to rob the bank... the real world don't work that way. I agree with Canuck's post.
I agree with Canuck as well, but I think I know what bizorky is saying. A bank is a private institution.
We all own the TTC to a certain degree. Paying is part of our responsibility.
I can see both side of the arguments, but I would tend to side with Canuck.
However, there's no indication that this means everyone gets a free pass; drivers will still enforce payment, they just won't get involved in a heated confrontation if the person refuses to do so.
I suppose this is one of the lengths they have to go to so the TTC will offer better protection for them.
M
miketoronto
Guest
If TTC drivers show they won't take crap, then usually people don't mess with them. Like I said, I have been on the Blue Night tons and tons of times, and those drivers do not take crap. You even miss 10 cents in the fare box, and its out.
Hell once some guys where a little loud(they where drunk), and the bus driver told them to quiet down or the bus was going to sit at the Yonge and Eglinton stop for transit security, or they where going to get off the bus.
Bus drivers just have to show who is boss.
You can also tell who the trouble makers usually are, and certain routes where the trouble happens.
Your not really going to have trouble on the Avenue Road bus for example, as much as say maybe the Neilson bus, which goes through Malvern..
So maybe they just need to increase security on some routes if they think its an issue.
But it also has to do with the drivers. Like I said, I have had drivers who don't put up with crap, and one basically put a bunch of bandana wearing gangsters in their place one night on my bus. He told them off, and told them to stop acting stupid and pay their fare, etc. And they listened, eventhough they gave attitude.
Hell once some guys where a little loud(they where drunk), and the bus driver told them to quiet down or the bus was going to sit at the Yonge and Eglinton stop for transit security, or they where going to get off the bus.
Bus drivers just have to show who is boss.
You can also tell who the trouble makers usually are, and certain routes where the trouble happens.
Your not really going to have trouble on the Avenue Road bus for example, as much as say maybe the Neilson bus, which goes through Malvern..
So maybe they just need to increase security on some routes if they think its an issue.
But it also has to do with the drivers. Like I said, I have had drivers who don't put up with crap, and one basically put a bunch of bandana wearing gangsters in their place one night on my bus. He told them off, and told them to stop acting stupid and pay their fare, etc. And they listened, eventhough they gave attitude.
S
Suicidal Gingerbread Man
Guest
Maybe they can fix this whole issue by simply not letting Rob Ford on the bus.
W
wyliepoon
Guest
Some Star reporters tried to see if the TTC really was "free"...
Link to article
Few ready to take TTC for a ride
May 26, 2006. 01:00 AM
NASREEN GULAMHUSEIN AND STEVE RENNIE
STAFF REPORTERS
So, it's free to ride the TTC?
The ongoing battle between the transit commission and its union erupted into a job action that potentially left the door open yesterday to free rides for thousands of commuters.
The TTC and its union have fought over security issues, health benefits, job evaluation and, most recently, the reassignment to more night shifts for janitors. The union had threatened an illegal strike over the new maintenance staff schedule, which kicks in Sunday.
As a result, the union announced that "it will be up to the travelling public whether or not they want to make a contribution to the box."
Two Star reporters hopped on the TTC to investigate.
As the number 17 bus stopped at Birchmount Rd. and Lawrence Ave. E., a reporter greeted the driver: "Hi, I'm not paying. I hear it's free these days."
The driver furrowed his brow before loudly announcing she was misinformed.
"Okay, well, I'm getting on. Are you going to stop me?"
"It's up to you to be honest or not. If you don't want to be then have a nice day," he said, waving her onto the bus. It was her fourth free ride of the day
Several drivers who spoke to the Star yesterday said they've been threatened for refusing to let someone ride for free.
"Someone threatened to shoot me two weeks ago just for requesting a transfer," said Walter Miller, a driver of nine years.
A 2005 TTC driver safety task force found transfer and fare disputes to be the main cause of assaults. It also found that seven out of 10 drivers have been assaulted during their careers. Operators report being kicked, punched, slapped and spit upon.
In an open letter to drivers and ticket collectors yesterday, TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme said it is their responsibility to collect fares, but added they are to use "good judgment" in fare disputes.
Ducharme said about 60 cents of every dollar collected goes to pay wages and benefits. If fares fall short of budget then that only leads to less service, increased fares to cover the shortfall, or tapping taxpayers for more subsidy, he said.
Ducharme also said the TTC takes driver safety seriously. The introduction of transferable passes and timed transfers help reduce friction between drivers and passengers, he wrote. Ducharme said cameras would be installed in buses and streetcars this fall, and work is underway on the possible installation of barriers around the driver's seat.
On the other side of town yesterday, Sheldon Johnson listened to his MP3 player as he waited outside the Dufferin subway station for the number 29 bus. He'd already paid his $2.75 and was surprised to learn some drivers were letting passengers ride for free. Johnson said he sympathizes with people who genuinely can't afford bus fare.
"The fare just keeps going up. I don't know when it's going to end," he said.
As the 29 came to a halt at the Dufferin stop, a Star reporter tried to slip by, unnoticed.
"I heard it's free to ride the bus today," he told the driver.
"Not on this bus. Perhaps you'd like to wait for the next bus," replied the smirking driver.
The reporter got off the bus.
Despite the prospect of a free ride, nearly everyone surveyed by the Star yesterday paid the fare. Sitting on the number 54 bus on Lawrence Ave. E., Diba Shashimi said she doesn't think it's a good idea to let people ride for free. "The situation gets worse and worse if people start thinking they can do whatever they want," she said.
Before boarding their final bus of the day at Queens Quay and Lower Jarvis, the reporters compared notes. One had taken seven free trips and paid for two. The other paid for seven and got two free.
The number 6 Dupont bus arrived and the reporters flashed their long-expired transfers to the driver. One got a nod and quietly slipped into a seat, the other wasn't so lucky. The driver asked to see his transfer again.
"I hear it's free today — the paper said so," he said.
"The papers don't know s---," was the reply.
A small argument ensued, and the reporter forked over a ticket.
Disclaimer: Although both reporters tried to ride for free, they paid the full fare before exiting each TTC vehicle.
with files from Kevin McGran
Link to article
Few ready to take TTC for a ride
May 26, 2006. 01:00 AM
NASREEN GULAMHUSEIN AND STEVE RENNIE
STAFF REPORTERS
So, it's free to ride the TTC?
The ongoing battle between the transit commission and its union erupted into a job action that potentially left the door open yesterday to free rides for thousands of commuters.
The TTC and its union have fought over security issues, health benefits, job evaluation and, most recently, the reassignment to more night shifts for janitors. The union had threatened an illegal strike over the new maintenance staff schedule, which kicks in Sunday.
As a result, the union announced that "it will be up to the travelling public whether or not they want to make a contribution to the box."
Two Star reporters hopped on the TTC to investigate.
As the number 17 bus stopped at Birchmount Rd. and Lawrence Ave. E., a reporter greeted the driver: "Hi, I'm not paying. I hear it's free these days."
The driver furrowed his brow before loudly announcing she was misinformed.
"Okay, well, I'm getting on. Are you going to stop me?"
"It's up to you to be honest or not. If you don't want to be then have a nice day," he said, waving her onto the bus. It was her fourth free ride of the day
Several drivers who spoke to the Star yesterday said they've been threatened for refusing to let someone ride for free.
"Someone threatened to shoot me two weeks ago just for requesting a transfer," said Walter Miller, a driver of nine years.
A 2005 TTC driver safety task force found transfer and fare disputes to be the main cause of assaults. It also found that seven out of 10 drivers have been assaulted during their careers. Operators report being kicked, punched, slapped and spit upon.
In an open letter to drivers and ticket collectors yesterday, TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme said it is their responsibility to collect fares, but added they are to use "good judgment" in fare disputes.
Ducharme said about 60 cents of every dollar collected goes to pay wages and benefits. If fares fall short of budget then that only leads to less service, increased fares to cover the shortfall, or tapping taxpayers for more subsidy, he said.
Ducharme also said the TTC takes driver safety seriously. The introduction of transferable passes and timed transfers help reduce friction between drivers and passengers, he wrote. Ducharme said cameras would be installed in buses and streetcars this fall, and work is underway on the possible installation of barriers around the driver's seat.
On the other side of town yesterday, Sheldon Johnson listened to his MP3 player as he waited outside the Dufferin subway station for the number 29 bus. He'd already paid his $2.75 and was surprised to learn some drivers were letting passengers ride for free. Johnson said he sympathizes with people who genuinely can't afford bus fare.
"The fare just keeps going up. I don't know when it's going to end," he said.
As the 29 came to a halt at the Dufferin stop, a Star reporter tried to slip by, unnoticed.
"I heard it's free to ride the bus today," he told the driver.
"Not on this bus. Perhaps you'd like to wait for the next bus," replied the smirking driver.
The reporter got off the bus.
Despite the prospect of a free ride, nearly everyone surveyed by the Star yesterday paid the fare. Sitting on the number 54 bus on Lawrence Ave. E., Diba Shashimi said she doesn't think it's a good idea to let people ride for free. "The situation gets worse and worse if people start thinking they can do whatever they want," she said.
Before boarding their final bus of the day at Queens Quay and Lower Jarvis, the reporters compared notes. One had taken seven free trips and paid for two. The other paid for seven and got two free.
The number 6 Dupont bus arrived and the reporters flashed their long-expired transfers to the driver. One got a nod and quietly slipped into a seat, the other wasn't so lucky. The driver asked to see his transfer again.
"I hear it's free today — the paper said so," he said.
"The papers don't know s---," was the reply.
A small argument ensued, and the reporter forked over a ticket.
Disclaimer: Although both reporters tried to ride for free, they paid the full fare before exiting each TTC vehicle.
with files from Kevin McGran
W
wyliepoon
Guest
Star's Joe Fiorito
Link to article
Honest, decent, fare-minded
May 26, 2006. 08:09 AM
JOE FIORITO
The social contract remains more or less intact. The mighty dam of civility sprung no leaks. The men and women who drive the TTC did not challenge anyone for fares yesterday, a job action intended to highlight their relative defencelessness.
How did we respond?
We paid up.
Said a streetcar operator on the King car heading up to Dundas West, "So far everybody is paying." He said this with half a smirk and half a smile. As if to say it's no big deal. His customers are, after all, the people of Toronto. If there's a fare to pay, we like to pay it.
Those two hippie boys who reeked of American cigarettes? They paid, and so did the old grandmother who got on at the next stop, and so did the young sad woman with the sloped shoulders and the sweater set. She even took a transfer.
I put the question to the operator again when I got off at the subway. He said, "So far no problems. People aren't taking advantage. I took a rest break earlier, for 20 minutes. I was talking to the others and they all said no one was taking advantage."
That's us.
We don't.
You recall those fears raised when the lights went out a couple of years ago? There was supposed to be trouble in the night. Instead, we barbecued our thawing steaks and shared them with the neighbours, and we drank warm wine and stayed up late and looked at the stars.
We are Torontonians.
Yes, there are jerks in our midst. They are a minority. The jerks are the ones who are unusual. Not many jerks in evidence today.
Oh, but there were some.
I saw jerks putting their feet on the seats, and jerks dropping their newspapers, and jerks crumpling up their fast-food wrappers and dropping their coffee cups. They are the jerks.
I noticed a gent with silver hair enter the subway at Yonge and Bloor. I offered him my card and said, "Sir, did you know you could have walked through unchallenged?" He said, "I didn't know." I explained the story. "I hadn't heard." He paused.
"I'd have paid anyway."
He's one of us.
A young couple followed the old man into the station. The boy said he was about to leave for Hawaii to teach sea kayaking. I put the question to him. He, too, was unaware. "Hmm," he said, mock thoughtfully. "I wish I'd known."
His girlfriend? "I didn't know, ha, ha." You could see her thinking what it might be like to barge past the turnstile; and then you could see her think again.
"I'll still pay."
Alas, she isn't going with her young fellow to Hawaii. He said, "This is the end of it." She said, "I might visit."
Nice kids. They are us.
We are nice.
And I, too, paid my fare at every possible opportunity. It is a privilege to do so. We own the system. You and me. I do not want to take advantage of you.
At the end of the Sheppard line, I had a chat with a ticket taker. I asked if he'd had any fare jumpers. "No," he said. "And I wouldn't chase them anyway. Why would I chase?" Not worth it to chase.
Later in the day, on the Don Mills bus heading south from Fairview Mall — oh, my, but he do get around! — I had a long chat with the driver.
Bus, crowded. Traffic, thick. The driver talked safely only when the bus was stopped. "I had five or six people get on without paying this afternoon."
Was it mostly guys?
"No, there were some girls. They just get on and keep walking to the back." Hmm. On a crowded bus, that's an improvement over the normal routine.
Was it kids?
"No, the ones I had were middle-aged. They get on in the middle of a crowd." How very non-confrontational.
But I, middle-agedly, was abashed. What the hell is wrong with you people? You ought to be ashamed. You are supposed to set an example for ...
Sorry. Carried away.
Had the driver ever had troubles in the past with people who had tried to duck the fare — which, by the way, at $2.75 in cash is too high and, one might argue, eminently duckable?
"No, I haven't had any problems. I've been driving for two years. People are really good to me."
Let's review: Driving two years. No problems. A little job action? Five or six fare middle-aged fare duckers.
And the scary-looking kid with the shaved head who got on next paid his fare. And the kids who got off at Don Mills and O'Connor remembered to thank the driver as they disembarked.
That's so very us.
I bumped into another driver on the platform at Pape station. How was his day? He sort of laughed. "I had a lady get on. She couldn't find her transfer. I told her not to worry about it.
"I've been driving 10 years. I've never been assaulted. I don't question anybody over two bucks. I've always had that policy. Ninety-nine per cent of the people pay their fare. The other one per cent? I don't worry about them." Nor should you.
But we all should be concerned about ways to keep our drivers safe.
Link to article
Honest, decent, fare-minded
May 26, 2006. 08:09 AM
JOE FIORITO
The social contract remains more or less intact. The mighty dam of civility sprung no leaks. The men and women who drive the TTC did not challenge anyone for fares yesterday, a job action intended to highlight their relative defencelessness.
How did we respond?
We paid up.
Said a streetcar operator on the King car heading up to Dundas West, "So far everybody is paying." He said this with half a smirk and half a smile. As if to say it's no big deal. His customers are, after all, the people of Toronto. If there's a fare to pay, we like to pay it.
Those two hippie boys who reeked of American cigarettes? They paid, and so did the old grandmother who got on at the next stop, and so did the young sad woman with the sloped shoulders and the sweater set. She even took a transfer.
I put the question to the operator again when I got off at the subway. He said, "So far no problems. People aren't taking advantage. I took a rest break earlier, for 20 minutes. I was talking to the others and they all said no one was taking advantage."
That's us.
We don't.
You recall those fears raised when the lights went out a couple of years ago? There was supposed to be trouble in the night. Instead, we barbecued our thawing steaks and shared them with the neighbours, and we drank warm wine and stayed up late and looked at the stars.
We are Torontonians.
Yes, there are jerks in our midst. They are a minority. The jerks are the ones who are unusual. Not many jerks in evidence today.
Oh, but there were some.
I saw jerks putting their feet on the seats, and jerks dropping their newspapers, and jerks crumpling up their fast-food wrappers and dropping their coffee cups. They are the jerks.
I noticed a gent with silver hair enter the subway at Yonge and Bloor. I offered him my card and said, "Sir, did you know you could have walked through unchallenged?" He said, "I didn't know." I explained the story. "I hadn't heard." He paused.
"I'd have paid anyway."
He's one of us.
A young couple followed the old man into the station. The boy said he was about to leave for Hawaii to teach sea kayaking. I put the question to him. He, too, was unaware. "Hmm," he said, mock thoughtfully. "I wish I'd known."
His girlfriend? "I didn't know, ha, ha." You could see her thinking what it might be like to barge past the turnstile; and then you could see her think again.
"I'll still pay."
Alas, she isn't going with her young fellow to Hawaii. He said, "This is the end of it." She said, "I might visit."
Nice kids. They are us.
We are nice.
And I, too, paid my fare at every possible opportunity. It is a privilege to do so. We own the system. You and me. I do not want to take advantage of you.
At the end of the Sheppard line, I had a chat with a ticket taker. I asked if he'd had any fare jumpers. "No," he said. "And I wouldn't chase them anyway. Why would I chase?" Not worth it to chase.
Later in the day, on the Don Mills bus heading south from Fairview Mall — oh, my, but he do get around! — I had a long chat with the driver.
Bus, crowded. Traffic, thick. The driver talked safely only when the bus was stopped. "I had five or six people get on without paying this afternoon."
Was it mostly guys?
"No, there were some girls. They just get on and keep walking to the back." Hmm. On a crowded bus, that's an improvement over the normal routine.
Was it kids?
"No, the ones I had were middle-aged. They get on in the middle of a crowd." How very non-confrontational.
But I, middle-agedly, was abashed. What the hell is wrong with you people? You ought to be ashamed. You are supposed to set an example for ...
Sorry. Carried away.
Had the driver ever had troubles in the past with people who had tried to duck the fare — which, by the way, at $2.75 in cash is too high and, one might argue, eminently duckable?
"No, I haven't had any problems. I've been driving for two years. People are really good to me."
Let's review: Driving two years. No problems. A little job action? Five or six fare middle-aged fare duckers.
And the scary-looking kid with the shaved head who got on next paid his fare. And the kids who got off at Don Mills and O'Connor remembered to thank the driver as they disembarked.
That's so very us.
I bumped into another driver on the platform at Pape station. How was his day? He sort of laughed. "I had a lady get on. She couldn't find her transfer. I told her not to worry about it.
"I've been driving 10 years. I've never been assaulted. I don't question anybody over two bucks. I've always had that policy. Ninety-nine per cent of the people pay their fare. The other one per cent? I don't worry about them." Nor should you.
But we all should be concerned about ways to keep our drivers safe.
G
ganjavih
Guest
I take the TTC for free all the time... well, I have a Metropass but quite often it isn't checked.
E
EnviroTO
Guest
In general, the responsibility lies with the passenger to pay - in all cases. To suggest that the driver is in the wrong when someone does not pay is to neglect the full responsibility of those who use the system.
I agree. I find it disappointing that society has gravitated towards a "if I can get away with it then it's their fault not mine" attitude. I can remember when I was younger and roadside stands would sell produce or trinkets and there would be a box to put money into because the owner was busy doing something else. If someone had a similar set up today you get a bunch of people making comments like "they deserve getting robbed" which is total nonsense. Nothing excuses criminal activity. Just because there isn't strong arm enforcement doesn't mean the obligations of the average citizen change.
That's like saying it's the bank customer's responsibility not to rob the bank... the real world don't work that way.
Hopefully the real world does work that way. Hopefully the majority of people aren't committing crimes because they feel it is wrong rather than they are afraid of the consequences. If in a democratic society the average person doesn't give a rats ass about law and order then don't expect law and order to remain. Sure there will always be thugs that society needs to take steps to deal with but the average citizen is not those thugs and people who steal because enforcement is lax need to realize that they themselves are criminals... not "criminal light"... true criminals.
S
samsonyuen
Guest
It wouldn't hurt to have cage-like booths for bus/streetcar drivers. The drive wouldn't have to get out. What I've seen them do here in London is if the driver wanted someone off, he'd just not drive on, and wait there. Everyone else on the bus would just heckle the passenger until he left.
N
nassauone
Guest
I am generally not the biggest union guy but in this case I agree with their arguement. Why risk getting my ass kicked for a measly $2.75. On the other hand, I do not agree with them making that call public; an internal memo to all drivers would have sufficed. (this is what unions do that make me crazy - it is kinda of a weak form of leverage to get more help. If it were a real safety concern - which I believe it is - keep it internal; the public and esp. the media will kill you on it)
While I do like the approach the English use for keeping their drivers safe (and one can bet their are a lot more incedents of violence towards drivers when it comes to lager louts) Essentially it is the same as saying do not pay if you do not want to and by that I mean a driver is not going to get out of his safe cubicle to confront someone who has not paid. He may not park the bus and refuse to move which could in turn make it more dangerous for other passengers. Let's face it, this is not about the homeless dude sneaking on, this is about little punks who have no respect.
Miketoronto's theory of large burly kickass drivers is completely flawed for numerous reasons. One: Do you fire all those guys under a certain size or with no background in security? Two: Sooner or later some ass will pull a gun. The size of someones balls have nothing to do with the size of someones gun. Three: Violence only encourages more violence. We are trying to make it safer for everyone. I am not going to ride abus if I think there is a chance that the driver is going to stop and duke it out with some teens. Even the possibility ofviolence is enough ot make people not want to ride.
While I do like the approach the English use for keeping their drivers safe (and one can bet their are a lot more incedents of violence towards drivers when it comes to lager louts) Essentially it is the same as saying do not pay if you do not want to and by that I mean a driver is not going to get out of his safe cubicle to confront someone who has not paid. He may not park the bus and refuse to move which could in turn make it more dangerous for other passengers. Let's face it, this is not about the homeless dude sneaking on, this is about little punks who have no respect.
Miketoronto's theory of large burly kickass drivers is completely flawed for numerous reasons. One: Do you fire all those guys under a certain size or with no background in security? Two: Sooner or later some ass will pull a gun. The size of someones balls have nothing to do with the size of someones gun. Three: Violence only encourages more violence. We are trying to make it safer for everyone. I am not going to ride abus if I think there is a chance that the driver is going to stop and duke it out with some teens. Even the possibility ofviolence is enough ot make people not want to ride.
B
bizorky
Guest
That's like saying it's the bank customer's responsibility not to rob the bank... the real world don't work that way. I agree with Canuck's post
I don't know what real world you are living in, but most bank customers don't rob banks. Your reasoning is a more than a little questionable here. Do I have to explain to you exactly what I mean?
A
adma
Guest
I don't know what real world you are living in, but most bank customers don't rob banks.
Of course not. Banks rob them. Why I even have to tell you that, I don't know...
**wha-whaaaa**
B
bizorky
Guest
^Your post is missing something: a point.
Canuck stated that part of the responsibility of a TTC employee is to make sure a proper fare is collected.
I added that, above all, it is the responsibility of the user to pay that fare.
For that, it has been suggested that I don't inhabit the "real world." And then a vacuous remark, such as the above, is added.
Am I to assume that you see no responsibility of the user to pay for the service? Somehow I don't think so.
Really, it's a pretty simple idea.
Canuck stated that part of the responsibility of a TTC employee is to make sure a proper fare is collected.
I added that, above all, it is the responsibility of the user to pay that fare.
For that, it has been suggested that I don't inhabit the "real world." And then a vacuous remark, such as the above, is added.
Am I to assume that you see no responsibility of the user to pay for the service? Somehow I don't think so.
Really, it's a pretty simple idea.
A
adma
Guest
^Your post is missing something: a point.
No sense of humour...
C
Canuck 36
Guest
Always pay.
If I use it, I pay for it - whether or not someone is standing over me watching me pay a proper fare, I know it's also my responsibility to pay for the service/transportation I'm using.
If I use it, I pay for it - whether or not someone is standing over me watching me pay a proper fare, I know it's also my responsibility to pay for the service/transportation I'm using.