Homelessness on GTA Transit (catch all)

[jje1000]

Bringing housing prices down and increasing affordable housing inventory is something that will happen over years- I think that the TTC cannot be allowed to become a defacto shelter while that happens.

Otherwise, we can continue to enjoy more 'security incidents' and 'unauthorised entry on the track' situations, which severely diminishes the utility of the TTC and its reputation.

 

[TheHonestMaple]

That’s what we’re doing! The number one policy response has to be to bring housing prices down.

I guess we disagree. In my opinion, the number one policy response is to get people with substance abuse issues and mental problems help. That would take the form of forced intervention, as they are unable or unwilling to help themselves.

 

[J Bacon]

That is completely false. Something like 99% of homeless are addicted to drugs or are mentally unwell.

A small portion? Get out of here with that nonsense.

This is nonsense - you went from talking about how it's all drug users and not high rent to stating that 99% is drug users OR mentally unwell.
So that means 1% could be drug users and 98% are mentally unwell. (Or any other imaginary combination)

Providing actual data would be more useful than assumptions projected on those experiencing homelessness. .

 

[generalcanada]

Maple, the way youre thinking about it is that "those with mental issues and addiction have issues that are unfixable without forced confinement" which is just not true.

That completely ignores why theyre using in the first place. They dont become addicted for no reason. Just like a coke fueled tech bro or a repeated drunken wife beater.
Whether it be lack of life outside of work, or a boring life that gives them no feeling of happiness so they take it out on others.

Its all compensating for problems, and society seems to think that only 1 of the 3 is a danger to society and requires them to be forcibly confined to kick their addiction.

You need to look deeper and not just what you see on the surface, whether it be someones life on the street being so bad that the feeling of the high or being drunk is the only relief they feel in life.
When they dont have a place to sleep, a place to shower, it 100% does lead to mental issues. Which means the opposite is true, If you give them a permanent secure place to sleep, eat and shower, they will become functioning members of society.

You need to look at the cause of problems not the symptom.

 

[TheHonestMaple]

Maple, the way youre thinking about it is that "those with mental issues and addiction have issues that are unfixable without forced confinement" which is just not true.

That completely ignores why theyre using in the first place. They dont become addicted for no reason. Just like a coke fueled tech bro or a repeated drunken wife beater.
Whether it be lack of life outside of work, or a boring life that gives them no feeling of happiness so they take it out on others.

Its all compensating for problems, and society seems to think that only 1 of the 3 is a danger to society and requires them to be forcibly confined to kick their addiction.

You need to look deeper and not just what you see on the surface, whether it be someones life on the street being so bad that the feeling of the high or being drunk is the only relief they feel in life.
When they dont have a place to sleep, a place to shower, it 100% does lead to mental issues. Which means the opposite is true, If you give them a permanent secure place to sleep, eat and shower, they will become functioning members of society.

You need to look at the cause of problems not the symptom.

I don't disagree with really any of this, the solution can be both. But when you have drug addicts and people with schizophrenia walking around on the street - you need to do something about it. And that has to take the form of forced intervention. Forcing people into treatment. There is no other solution. No amount of tents or safe supply of drugs will get those people to fix themselves.

I think a lot of people think they are being compassionate when they say they support handing out food, tents, or 'safe' drugs. But true compassion can only come in the form of real intervention. That is actual help.

 

[crs1026]

That is completely incorrect and perpetuating that lie is a big problem. The reason we're in this mess is hardcore drug use, and the proliferation of fentanyl. That combined with lenient drug enforcement policies. Literally zero to do with high rents. Frustrates me to no end hearing that.

These people are not on the streets because their rent was too high. They are on the streets because the put their drug addiction above everything else including paying their bills.

Substance abuse is not a new problem. Not being able to maintain a residence while also feeding an addiction is the newer thing.

The availability of opiods is certainly adding new cases, and at a concerning rate. But addictive substances have always been available, fentanyl just happens to be the cheapest drug out there these days. The person panhandling outside the LCBO may not be a fentanyl user, and they have always been out there.

I do think safe injection sites do magnify the problem - where before there might be two or three zoned out addicts on any block, but distributed over an area...now there are a lot of people concentrated in one spot, many just hanging around, in various levels of insobriety. These sites have value - but there has to be a whole plan of support and security around them. It does seem that some are the result of good intentions but poorly planned and the source of indignation (for and against) instead of pragmatic execution.

You seem pretty judgemental about addiction. I'm not advocating for it, but it's an illness to be solved and not a social faux pas that people ought to be shamed over.

- Paul

 

[TheHonestMaple]

Substance abuse is not a new problem. Not being able to maintain a residence while also feeding an addiction is the newer thing.

The availability of opiods is certainly adding new cases, and at a concerning rate. But addictive substances have always been available, fentanyl just happens to be the cheapest drug out there these days. The person panhandling outside the LCBO may not be a fentanyl user, and they have always been out there.

I do think safe injection sites do magnify the problem - where before there might be two or three zoned out addicts on any block, but distributed over an area...now there are a lot of people concentrated in one spot, many just hanging around, in various levels of insobriety. These sites have value - but there has to be a whole plan of support and security around them. It does seem that some are the result of good intentions but poorly planned and the source of indignation (for and against) instead of pragmatic execution.

You seem pretty judgemental about addiction. I'm not advocating for it, but it's an illness to be solved and not a social faux pas that people ought to be shamed over.

- Paul

The proliferation of fentanyl and carfentanyl is definitely the leading cause of the current wave of homelessness. There has never been a drug that cheap and that potent widely available until just a few years ago.

I am not judgemental at all. I don't understand why people who are critical of the current approach are always branded as judgemental or insensitive. This problem is NEVER going to be solved until we are willing to face the reality that homelessness is primarily caused by addiction to hard drugs, and mental illnesses.

I highly recommend you read the book San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities by Michael Shellenberger. Michael Shellenberger is a former progressive activists who had a realization that the homeless issue in California was not due to high rents, but simply drug addiction. He's now a strong advocate for drug treatment solutions for homeless in San Francisco and has been making significant progress. It was an eye opening read for me.

 

[J Bacon]

I am not judgemental at all. I don't understand why people who are critical of the current approach are always branded as judgemental or insensitive. This problem is NEVER going to be solved until we are willing to face the reality that homelessness is primarily caused by addiction to hard drugs, and mental illnesses.

Addiction to hard drugs and mental illness are very different and need very different solutions.
This is all assumption without data.

 

[evandyk]

If you could wave a magic wand and end drug addiction and mental illness, Toronto would still have several thousand homeless people. If you got rid of alcohol, that would probably make a big dent in the number.

 

[TheHonestMaple]

Addiction to hard drugs and mental illness are very different and need very different solutions.
This is all assumption without data.

Totally agree! Hardcore drug addiction and mental illness both require different solutions, but as of right now neither are getting any attention. Just giving these people tents and food doesn't help, at all.

@evandyk , I also totally agree. I would put alcohol addiction under the same category as drug addiction though. Might not have made that clear. Where I disagree is that we would still have thousands of homeless if you waved a magic wand to remove those three issues. My guess is you've had extremely few, supported by evidence all outlined in the book i've mentioned above.

 

[tomatohat]

I could be wrong on this, but can't mental institutions not actually forcibly intervene with peoples' mental issues? That and they also can't keep them there against their will? i.e. the people with the mental issues have to know where and how to seek out help instead? That's not counting the people suffering from drug abuse, who might also have a difficult time finding how and where to seek help?

 

[evandyk]

There are ways to force treatment on people and keep them there against their will, but that's basically jail, so the test is pretty stringent.

 

[generalcanada]

I mean this Shellenberger guy is just petersen-lite. going against his own ideals just to sellout for winning a political position
ANNNYWAY politics aside, youre still not getting it

This problem is NEVER going to be solved until we are willing to face the reality that homelessness is primarily caused by addiction to hard drugs, and mental illnesses.

You can continue to say that, and it can be true but can you say WHY people get mental illness and addiction?
Why do they have schizophrenia? Why do they sleep in tents? Why are they unable to hold down jobs? Why are they unable to secure safe secure warm homes for themselves?

What im trying to say is that you cant stop looking at surface level issues, you have to go deeper and ask yourself why

Would a doctor when seeing a patient with symptoms of a constant headaches, would he just give you advil and tell you to go away or would he ask why?
Because thats what youre doing, yes you can treat addiction, but you have to ask WHY theyre addicted? Otherwise they will end up getting addicted again when nothing improves in their lives.

Would the doctor continue to ask about your stress level? would he ask about your life at home to get a full understanding as to the root cause of why you have headaches?

As I said before those conversations are not something society wants to talk about, which is why this wont be resolved anytime soon

 

[TheHonestMaple]

I mean this Shellenberger guy is just petersen-lite. going against his own ideals just to sellout for winning a political position
ANNNYWAY politics aside, youre still not getting it


You can continue to say that, and it can be true but can you say WHY people get mental illness and addiction?
Why do they have schizophrenia? Why do they sleep in tents? Why are they unable to hold down jobs? Why are they unable to secure safe secure warm homes for themselves?

What im trying to say is that you cant stop looking at surface level issues, you have to go deeper and ask yourself why

Would a doctor when seeing a patient with symptoms of a constant headaches, would he just give you advil and tell you to go away or would he ask why?
Because thats what youre doing, yes you can treat addiction, but you have to ask WHY theyre addicted? Otherwise they will end up getting addicted again when nothing improves in their lives.

Would the doctor continue to ask about your stress level? would he ask about your life at home to get a full understanding as to the root cause of why you have headaches?

As I said before those conversations are not something society wants to talk about, which is why this wont be resolved anytime soon

petersen-lite lol. Watch some interviews of him and you'll realize how factually untrue that is. The guy is a progressive.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. For sure we need to treat the underlying issue as well.

But letting drug addicts and mentally unwell people wander the streets is not OK. They need help, now. Which has to be far more dramatic then just giving them tents. I'm not totally sure what that solution looks like. But in my opinion, once you're allow yourself to be so deep in addiction or mental health distress that you're literally sleeping outside in your own filth, you've given up your rights to self autonomy and you need some sort of treatment to be given to you forcefully.

It makes me so sad seeing these people outside in the condition they are in, and even sadder knowing that no one wants to truly help them. It's just crappy all around.

Anyway.... i'm going to back out of this conversation. Far too polarized for me. Enjoy the discussion everyone!

 

[generalcanada]

Which has to be far more dramatic then just giving them tents. I'm not totally sure what that solution looks like

/thread