Homelessness on GTA Transit (catch all)

[SubHuman]

... BTW - no police officer or transit officer will move someone off a transit vehicle until they feel like they have political or societal acceptance to do so - and that’s in short supply nowadays. The organization and individual will be ripped apart online, and it’ll be politically expedient not to come to their defence, unfortunately.

I think more people are better understanding the situation now. We're not helping these mentally unsound people by leaving them alone, particularly the ones endangering themselves by climbing onto the tracks and walking into the tunnels (and it sounds like they actually are arrested). I would see a small number of those "my neighbours in tents" lawn signs a couple of years ago. They all disappeared somewhat quickly, I think by the time of the unprovoked knifing murders at the High Park and Keele TTC stations.

I don’t think anything will change. The public has accepted that transit users should be dealing with this (out of sight, out of mind). And, we’re unwilling to commit to the funds, resources or strategies necessary to deal with this issue.

I suppose the provincial government could point to this being efficient by avoiding the spending to build and operate more psychiatric institutions, and having Toronto’s subway system be a big de facto substitute, though one without any attendants or physicians. I would prefer that not to be the case.

 

[Jonny5]

I hate to say it, but the disappearance of ultra-cheap apartments, flophouses, and motels in inner city neighborhoods has been almost equally disastrous for the precariously housed and urban poor as the loss of institutional mental health spaces.

Without this supply of housing, the net result has been a second disgorging of this populace into the public realm.

Plus other things like the cutback on 24-hour fast food restaurant space too, many of which actually still remain open but now only for delivery take-out windows which are used far more than actual walk in sit-down business anyway.
I think back 20 years ago and I would guess around 100 people downtown camped out spread across all the fast food places that were tacitly ignored by staff from midnight to 6:00 a.m. or so, but now they won't allow that because they don't have dine-in overnight, or for staff safety because of the rampant drug use. So those 100 (now far more) are forced out into the system.

 

[evandyk]

Bus shelters being used as intended.

 

[TheHonestMaple]

One of the major impediments to addressing the homeless issue is the advocacy of solutions by activists purportedly rooted in empathy, yet these solutions inadvertently perpetuate the problem. Distributing tents and drugs to individuals struggling with mental health issues is evidently ineffective in resolving the underlying issues.

The Hamilton encampment support network in downtown Hamilton is a prime example. Lots of supporters of that policy in Hamilton from some users in this forum.

 

[generalcanada]

One of the major impediments to addressing the homeless issue is the advocacy of solutions by activists purportedly rooted in empathy, yet these solutions inadvertently perpetuate the problem. Distributing tents and drugs to individuals struggling with mental health issues is evidently ineffective in resolving the underlying issues.

The Hamilton encampment support network in downtown Hamilton is a prime example. Lots of supporters of that policy in Hamilton from some users in this forum.

of course everyone can understand that drugs and homeless make areas feel unsafe, but whats the other solution?

The one activists always call for is always based in funding. whether it be more housing, or ways to get addicts off drugs so they can contribute to society.

Ive never heard of a solution from the other side other than "get them out of here" aka bussing and dropping them off in other cities so they can deal with them.

The real problem like many in society is that unless people directly feel impacted by an issue it wont matter to them and they dont see the point in spending money.

People dont see the point in spending money on shelters because "out of sight out of mind". They would prefer to not see any homeless and hide them rather than spend money and acknowledge the issue
when news reports talk about $100 million hotel bills for housing the homeless, people get mad, not at what led to needing to use hotels but at why were using them instead of nothing.

They would talk a completely different tune if they were in a situation that needed them

The only way to fix this is a massive amount of money and an actual willing effort to fix problems. Both of which is lacking in society nowadays

/soapbox

 

[crs1026]

One of the major impediments to addressing the homeless issue is the advocacy of solutions by activists purportedly rooted in empathy, yet these solutions inadvertently perpetuate the problem. Distributing tents and drugs to individuals struggling with mental health issues is evidently ineffective in resolving the underlying issues.

The Hamilton encampment support network in downtown Hamilton is a prime example. Lots of supporters of that policy in Hamilton from some users in this forum.

The homeless encampments I have seen in smaller Ontario cities (Hamilton, Kitchener, etc) seem even more destitute and pervasive than those in central Toronto. My gut wonders if we are indeed shifting the problem out of Toronto instead of dealing with it.

I am actually in favour of dispensing tents etc because it makes the problem more visible and gives the homelessness a sense of place. That's actually a good thing because it makes it harder for the authorities and the public to see past the problem. And better a tent than sleeping on a sewer grate. Doesn't mean that we intend to institutionalise the tents (I do recognize there are people out their with their own agendas) but sometimes in life a problem (sadly) has to get dire before there is a puiblic resolve to fix it.

I do not foresee any "big bang" solution and even if more money is allocated to low cost housing, mental health care, etc it will only arrive gradually. And we must be realistic that the mental health profession can't cure everyone or everything, nor can we prevent or cure all addictions. This is not a "vision zero" opportunity as there will always be some proportion who attempt to live on the streets - hopefully a much more manageable situation and one where support is always kept available. There must always be hope, but those who preach some draconian change with the promise of quick elimination of the problem are probably not being realistic or helpful.

Getting back to transit, this does not imply that transit should be that temporary housing vehicle.

- Paul

 

[evandyk]

I'm pretty sure all of the people who advocate giving out tents and letting people sleep in parks also advocate providing shelter beds and supportive housing in apartments. But as long as there's not going to be money for those things, tents (and safe supply/safe use sites) are the interim measure that can give people who we've otherwise abandoned a modicum of safety and dignity while they try to survive on the streets

I'm not sure that the problem is being shifted outside of Toronto. It's still as bad as ever in Toronto (or worse). But as the housing crisis takes hold in smaller cities as well, they're starting to see more and more homelessness. There's fairly clear evidence that the level of homelessness in any city (at least in North America) is directly correlated to the cost of real estate (mostly rents).

 

[TheHonestMaple]

I'm pretty sure all of the people who advocate giving out tents and letting people sleep in parks also advocate providing shelter beds and supportive housing in apartments. But as long as there's not going to be money for those things, tents (and safe supply/safe use sites) are the interim measure that can give people who we've otherwise abandoned a modicum of safety and dignity while they try to survive on the streets

I'm not sure that the problem is being shifted outside of Toronto. It's still as bad as ever in Toronto (or worse). But as the housing crisis takes hold in smaller cities as well, they're starting to see more and more homelessness. There's fairly clear evidence that the level of homelessness in any city (at least in North America) is directly correlated to the cost of real estate (mostly rents).

That is completely incorrect and perpetuating that lie is a big problem. The reason we're in this mess is hardcore drug use, and the proliferation of fentanyl. That combined with lenient drug enforcement policies. Literally zero to do with high rents. Frustrates me to no end hearing that.

These people are not on the streets because their rent was too high. They are on the streets because the put their drug addiction above everything else including paying their bills.

 

[evandyk]

That is totally wrong. There is obviously a link to drug use and mental health, but the link between housing prices and homelessness is very clear:

How Housing Costs Drive Levels of Homelessness

A new analysis of rent prices and homelessness in American cities demonstrates the strong connection between the two: homelessness is high in urban areas where rents are high, and homelessness rises when rents rise.

www.pewtrusts.org

A large body of academic research has consistently found that homelessness in an area is driven by housing costs, whether expressed in terms of rents, rent-to-income ratios, price-to-income ratios, or home prices. Further, changes in rents precipitate changes in rates of homelessness: homelessness increases when rents rise by amounts that low-income households cannot afford. Similarly, interventions to address housing costs by providing housing directly or through subsidies have been effective in reducing homelessness. That makes sense if housing costs are the main driver of homelessness, but not if other reasons are to blame. Studies show that other factors have a much smaller impact on homelessness.

 

[T3G]

That is completely incorrect and perpetuating that lie is a big problem. The reason we're in this mess is hardcore drug use, and the proliferation of fentanyl. That combined with lenient drug enforcement policies. Literally zero to do with high rents. Frustrates me to no end hearing that.

These people are not on the streets because their rent was too high. They are on the streets because the put their drug addiction above everything else including paying their bills.

No, the people you are seeing strung out drugs are only a small portion of the homeless, the visible minority.

There are many, MANY more who are living in shelters, in cars, crashing with friends or relatives because they've been priced out. And if we want to actually tackle the problem of homelessness, we need to make this problem go away, it is not enough to make sure the drug users are out of sight, out of mind.

 

[TheHonestMaple]

That is completely false. Something like 99% of homeless are addicted to drugs or are mentally unwell.

A small portion? Get out of here with that nonsense.

 

[T3G]

That is completely false. Something like 99% of homeless are addicted to drugs or are mentally unwell.

A small portion? Get out of here with that nonsense.

If you can't be civil, don't bother contributing.

 

[evandyk]

Probably not worth engaging with someone with that level of disconnection from reality.

 

[TheHonestMaple]

If we're not going to be honest about the problem, then we'll never make any progress to solve it.

 

[evandyk]

That’s what we’re doing! The number one policy response has to be to bring housing prices down.