Homelessness on GTA Transit (catch all)

[Admiral Beez]

How do you draw the line? Sure, a violent mentally ill person is a danger and should be dealt with - but some guy walking around yelling at the voices in his head is not a danger.

The problem is the where’s the line? I’ve come to the realization that there are monsters among us, by which I mean those unpredictable insane folks who seemingly at random strike out and assault and kill us. I can understand gangbangers, drug dealers and even and armed robberies and car jackings, and can take measure to avoid these risks. But the psycho with the concealed knife or subway pusher? There’s little to no defence, no way to predict and avoid. It’s these folks among us that make me wary of myself or my family taking transit. When we ignore the guy walking around the subway or platform flaying about, yelling at the voices in his head while passengers avoid eye contact, trying to become invisible and avoid being attacked, we reinforce the perception of chaos and unpredictability of transit. The solution starts with ensuring no one gets onto the subway platform without paying their fare and enforcing the TTC’s bylaws against disturbances, public nuisance and loitering. Do you think this guy paid his fare and followed these bylaws? I feel like the city is under siege, with the sane and sober folks just trying to live their lives while those we entrust with public safety are abandoning Torontonians to their fate.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TTC/comments/1c4tyu4/mentally_unhinged_people_on_streetcars_getting

 

[FrankNF]

The first website that comes up on Google when you search for the stat is the Arlington Life Shelter - which is a non-profit helping the homeless in Arlington USA. According to that site 68% of homeless are due to substance addiction, and another 25% is due to mental illness, that's 93%. They reference the National Coalition for the Homeless for the the research, which states that those percentages are a national average in the USA. I suspect Canada is quite similar.

Why facing that reality is so difficult for you people is beyond me. Go walk around any encampment in Toronto, it's clearly mostly related to drugs. If we can get these people the help they so desperately need and deserve, we might actually be able to solve the problem.

I personally know someone close to my family that was homeless and past away due to addiction to drugs. This is not something i'm making up. This is the reality. I wish people would take it more seriously.

If this is the website you mean, then it does not at all say what you say it says.
On the 68%: it does not say that 68% of homeless people are unhoused because of addiction issues. It says that cities think it's the main cause. If you go to the named source for this information (which is not linked but named and appears to be this: https://nationalhomeless.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Substance-Abuse-and-Homelessness.pdf), it explains that it was simply a survey of mayors for top three causes. 68% of mayors saying that it is one of three main causes does not equate 68% of homeless people being unhoused because of addiction.
In fact, the source gives numbers for addiction well below 68%: 38 and 26 respectively for alcohol and other drugs. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the percentage of people losing shelter because of addiction is not going to be higher than the percentage of homeless people who are addicted.
(Also the report says 43%, I don't know where they get the 68%, but this seems to be the report they're referring to.)

On the 25%: That number is clearly for homeless people suffering from mental illness. That is not the same as the latter being the cause. The quote from generalcanada below shows that quite well. Homelessness is as likely to be the cause of mental illness as vice-versa, if not more. These numbers also seem to be in line with more anecdotal data from people working with homeless populations: people may have had manageable alcohol or drug use, or manageable mental health issues (and don't most of us in one way or another), but those become unmanageable from the stress of homelessness. Indeed, we know that major life stressors are common triggers for addiction and mental health issues -- and becoming homeless surely is a major stress event.

25% said they lost their housing due to addiction,
20% said because they couldnt pay rent
15% said domestic issue with partner

Also note that the chance of becoming addicted goes up 50% after 6 months of homelessness

https://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/al...s/HPD-Report-AddictionsReport-20210121-VF.pdf

[...]

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-10-94
To summarize:

• Multiple studies show that the number of people with addiction is way lower than what you think
• Multiple studies note that youth is a major factor is housing loss.
• Studies show rent is an issue for a lot of people

And finally, People don't become homeless because of addiction, They become homeless for many, many complicated reasons

I know people mean well, and certainly mental health and addiction support has to be a part of any response to the homelessness crisis, but it just seems that too often (and I'm not saying that's the case for anyone here in particular) addiction and mental health are convenient excuses to blame the victims and to not address the housing part of the puzzle.

 

[T3G]

I can understand gangbangers, drug dealers and even and armed robberies and car jackings, and can take measure to avoid these risks.

What possible measures could you take against any of these groups????

 

[Admiral Beez]

What possible measures could you take against any of these groups????

Don't join or associate with gangs, don't buy, sell or use drugs, follow the tips for avoiding armed robberies, and don't own or drive a vehicle in the top stolen brands. These are the simple life hacks one can employ to avoid being the victim of a violent assault or murder. But there's no defence, nothing you can do to prepare against the mentally ill person with the concealed weapon who for no reason strikes out.

 

[generalcanada]

I know people mean well, and certainly mental health and addiction support has to be a part of any response to the homelessness crisis, but it just seems that too often (and I'm not saying that's the case for anyone here in particular) addiction and mental health are convenient excuses to blame the victims and to not address the housing part of the puzzle.

As people have said before you really have to ask "why are they that way" people dont just become addicted when they have a good life.

When the Spanish solution to homelessness is literally give them homes, give them jobs, prevent people from losing their homes. How can we say we have tried them

reminds me of this:

 

[T3G]

Those are all best practices, but they are no guarantee that you won't be one of their victims anyway. Life is strange and chaotic and unpredictable. It's not like it's that unheard of for gangs to settle their accounts in public spaces, and you are just as helpless against being caught up in that as you are against a maladjusted transit passenger.

 

[evandyk]

Many more pedestrians are injured or killed by very sane but careless drivers every year than people injured or killed by mentally ill people on the TTC.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Those are all best practices, but they are no guarantee

I never claimed any absolutes. Nevertheless I did my best to answer what I assumed was a genuine inquiry rather than a dismissal.

Many more pedestrians are injured or killed by very sane but careless drivers every year than people injured or killed by mentally ill people on the TTC.

Except for those drivers who jumped the sidewalk, most pedestrians are hit by drivers when they've entered the road space. When I do so, I am hyper vigilant, make no assumptions that ROW will be respected nor that I will be seen, I do not cross mid-block, I never have my headphones on or am distracted when crossing the road, and I wait for traffic to stop at signaled or controlled crosswalks before entering the road space. The city spells it out easy enough here: Vision Zero Safety Guide for Pedestrians. Of course those are no guarantees, but it's about reducing the odds.

But there's nothing 16-year-old Gabriel Magalhaes could have done to prevent being stabbed by an insane guy at Keele station. That's what I'm referring to, in that most other risks to personal safety we can mitigate for, but not for the random psycho with a concealed weapon. And the city and TTC know they have a problem with potentially violent mentally ill people on their system.

Toronto officials blame random TTC attacks on people with mental health problems

Over the past few weeks, public transit users in Toronto have been shot to death, stabbed in the neck and pushed onto subway tracks in front of a mov…

www.blogto.com

But knowing and doing something about it are two different things. Until then, I will ride the subway and streetcar like everyone else. When a mentally ill guy gets on, shouting and flaying about (or fighting with a mannequin, ffs) I'll look to the ground, slowly creep away, hoping that if he strikes out, it's someone else. Because that's what the province, city and TTC have done to us; making it every man for themselves.

I wonder if last week's subway stabbing will be yet another case of an mentally ill person, known to police and unleashed unto the public.

Toronto, Canada and Global Breaking News – CP24

Most recent News News business news stories and video from CP24

www.cp24.com

 

[SubHuman]

How do you draw the line?
Sure, a violent mentally ill person is a danger and should be dealt with - but some guy walking around yelling at the voices in his head is not a danger.

The problem is the where’s the line?..
I feel like the city is under siege, with the sane and sober folks just trying to live their lives while those we entrust with public safety are abandoning Torontonians to their fate.

It's not just about the assaults and murders. I would say anyone who climbs down onto the tracks and runs into the tunnel has definitely crossed a line showing they are too much of a danger to themselves and should not be allowed to freely wander around the city to keep doing this again and again, as certainly seems to be happening. I don't think I'm being unsympathetic in complaining about how often mentally unsound individuals are causing TTC vehicles to be taken out of service (because of disturbances, urinating, defecating, etc.), and shutting down subway lines.

I don't understand those who have the attitude of 'there's nothing we can do about it, and we just have to keep letting this happen'.
Who or what does anyone think they're helping or protecting by arguing to let these mentally unsound people keep endangering themselves and shutting down the TTC?

 

[Admiral Beez]

What all of Canada needs is a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to housing as I outlined here:

How to solve homeless issue?

If people could make money off homelessness the problem would be fixed already. When you live downtown east like I do, you soon realize there's a huge industrial complex built around the homeless, with hundreds of workers dependent on the homeless for their careers, relevance and salaries...

urbantoronto.ca

If we house everyone first, then we can more easily address addiction and mental health issues. Those at the most risk of injuring themselves or others would need to be in a more supervised setting, but I wonder if many of the mentally ill people we see would be healthy if they had a permanent home with access to meds. Given there are an estimated 150-300k homeless in Canada, this all sounds expensive, but we can reduce the cost of enforcement and healthcare.... and as for the TTC and city, we could finally rid ourselves of the crazies, junkies, beggars and encampments that seem to spreading across the city and TTC like a cancer.

 

[evandyk]

Except for those drivers who jumped the sidewalk, most pedestrians are hit by drivers when they've entered the road space. When I do so, I am hyper vigilant, make no assumptions that ROW will be respected nor that I will be seen, I do not cross mid-block, I never have my headphones on or am distracted when crossing the road, and I wait for traffic to stop at signaled or controlled crosswalks before entering the road space. The city spells it out easy enough here: Vision Zero Safety Guide for Pedestrians. Of course those are no guarantees, but it's about reducing the odds.

But there's nothing 16-year-old Gabriel Magalhaes could have done to prevent being stabbed by an insane guy at Keele station. That's what I'm referring to, in that most other risks to personal safety we can mitigate for, but not for the random psycho with a concealed weapon. And the city and TTC know they have a problem with potentially violent mentally ill people on their system.

I feel safer, especially with my young son, standing on a TTC platform or sitting in a subway train (even where a homeless person is occupying a bench to sleep on) than I do walking along a busy street like Front or Adelaide.

 

[turbanplanner]

Many more pedestrians are injured or killed by very sane but careless drivers every year than people injured or killed by mentally ill people on the TTC.

I've never felt unsafe driving, and if you're avoiding highways or high speed intersections at night your risk is nearly 0.

I've felt unsafe on probably 1/3 TTC trips, I've been threatened to be shot at, I've been sexually assulted, the TTC special constables can't even get emergency lights so response times are slower than they could be potentially. The funny thing is I probably drive 30,000KM a year, but maybe 1000 by TTC + GO, yet I've had infinitely more bad experiences.

Consider how few people report incidents on the TTC? NOBODY I know feels like anything short of a stabbing will be actioned, so why bother reporting the stats?

 

[turbanplanner]

What all of Canada needs is a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to housing as I outlined here:

How to solve homeless issue?

If people could make money off homelessness the problem would be fixed already. When you live downtown east like I do, you soon realize there's a huge industrial complex built around the homeless, with hundreds of workers dependent on the homeless for their careers, relevance and salaries...

urbantoronto.ca

If we house everyone first, then we can more easily address addiction and mental health issues. Those at the most risk of injuring themselves or others would need to be in a more supervised setting, but I wonder if many of the mentally ill people we see would be healthy if they had a permanent home with access to meds. Given there are an estimated 150-300k homeless in Canada, this all sounds expensive, but we can reduce the cost of enforcement and healthcare.... and as for the TTC and city, we could finally rid ourselves of the crazies, junkies, beggars and encampments that seem to spreading across the city and TTC like a cancer.

Fix the issue first for people who WANT rehab, if there is no space for them housing + no support for reluctant people won't really lead to anything aside from more broken houses

 

[vic]

I've felt unsafe on probably 1/3 TTC trips, I've been threatened to be shot at, I've been sexually assulted, the TTC special constables can't even get emergency lights so response times are slower than they could be potentially. The funny thing is I probably drive 30,000KM a year, but maybe 1000 by TTC + GO, yet I've had infinitely more bad experiences.

Unsafe on 1/3 of trips? I honestly find that super surprising. Or maybe 'm just in a weird bubble of mostly safe Symington and Lansdowne buses, and west-end Line 2?
Even when I go downtown, or up the Yonge Line, or take streetcars, it's super rare that I would feel "unsafe". I mean, I see strange and annoying people..... but it's pretty rare that I feel "unsafe".

 

[turbanplanner]

Unsafe on 1/3 of trips? I honestly find that super surprising. Or maybe 'm just in a weird bubble of mostly safe Symington and Lansdowne buses, and west-end Line 2?
Even when I go downtown, or up the Yonge Line, or take streetcars, it's super rare that I would feel "unsafe". I mean, I see strange and annoying people..... but it's pretty rare that I feel "unsafe".

If the police show up while I’m there I feel that’s a fair reason to feel unsafe (threats and sexual assault is a gimme imo lol) I think strange people sort of throw out the social contract if you’re acting really weird and yelling at the air the whole don’t bother me and I won’t bother you rule feels like it just flew out the window.

I also tend to ride later at night