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Homelessness and Panhandling in Toronto

"You have to start with a general consensus, and that is, that living on the street, particularly in a northern climate, is not good for anyone. It's not good for the poor or homeless it's not good for the mentally ill person wandering the street, it's not good for local businesses or tourism. Regardless of why they are there and which agencies should be responsible for dealing with them, the bottom line is, you have to generally all agree that it's not good for anyone to be living or begging on the street. Once that very basic consensus is established you can pass the laws and build the infrastructure to deal with the various problems affecting these people."
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I really, really do believe that Rudy Guliani is an absolute scumbag and a true fascist (just google some of his speeches on the role of government), yet I can't disagree with that quote. Is there any benefit to allowing them to sleep on the street and beg? I just don't see it. It can't be an issue of it being outside the jurisdiction of the city; after all, we already have bylaws to regulate what can and cannot be done on our streets. And if the city is willing to consider levying a "sidewalk tax" against night clubs for taking up public space with their queues, why can't they consider removing panhandlers and homeless people that also use public space without paying?
 
Also, it was just a little more than a case of idealism that got him there
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It was something that didn't allow us to stop him before it was too late.


Alright stop being a smartass and give me a proper solution to this problem. Quoting Albert Einstein won't stop aggressive panhandlers.



who suggested that common sense is the collected prejudices acquired by age eighteen.
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Well i don't care what you say, my prejudices are based of experience first hand and from the words from the police chief of Toronto himself.

They are much better then some smart ass posts trying to not even solve the problem.
 
lordmandeep said:
It was something that didn't allow us to stop him before it was too late.

Alright stop being a smartass and give me a proper solution to this problem. Quoting Albert Einstein won't stop aggressive panhandlers.

Well i don't care what you say, my prejudices are based of experience first hand and from the words from the police chief of Toronto himself.

They are much better then some smart ass posts trying to not even solve the problem.
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You haven't given a solution to the problem either. The homelessness issue as a whole is a very complicated one which would require a lot of time and analysis before coming up with anything resembling a solution. What I wouldn't recommend is accepting a persons prejudices against a certain group or people based on that persons past negative experiences with a few members of said group or people, something a few followers of Hitler could be accused of acting on.
 
poppajojo said:
You haven't given a solution to the problem either.
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But I have.

With regards to panhandling (as opposed to strictly homeless), stop feeding the beast! Stop giving to panhandlers, final, full stop. Make it an offense to give money to panhandlers at the roadside, same way we make it an offense to give money to prostitutes for services (spare me the argument that you can give them money for nothing - no one is doing that, and it'll probably still end you up in the back of a police car since they'll never believe you gave the money as charity). In the USA there is a US$1,000 fine for feeding bears, since the government understands that the bears will become a public nuissance.

With regards strictly to the homeless issue, follow the mayor of Calgary's example. Miller should give a press release stating that if you don't have a job and a place to live already lined up, do not come to Toronto, as we have no space for you. Next, if we truly want to clean up the downtown core, especially around Allan Gardens and down Jarvis and Sherbourne, then we must relocate a good portion of the shelters in those areas to locations outside of the downtown core. The downtown core is a mecca for the homeless because that's where the shelters are, not vice versa. Redesign the big shelters into smaller but more numerous shelters, and make sure every ward in the city has an equal share.
 
Beez:

Your solution wouldn't work - just like "banning" panhandlers, how are you going to enforce it? Unlike feeding bears, there is no agreement in society that giving money is a bad idea. If we can't even prevent people from speeding, what makes you think we will have luck in what you've proposed?

Next, if we truly want to clean up the downtown core, especially around Allan Gardens and down Jarvis and Sherbourne, then we must relocate a good portion of the shelters in those areas to locations outside of the downtown core. The downtown core is a mecca for the homeless because that's where the shelters are, not vice versa. Redesign the big shelters into smaller but more numerous shelters, and make sure every ward in the city has an equal share.
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In principle, yes - I agree that there should be more smaller shelters and having them more spread out, but be prepared that a) the costs are going to go up and b) having the support network available in other areas of the city.

As to Calgary, if only their problems can be solved by a press release!

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
In principle, yes - I agree that there should be more smaller shelters and having them more spread out, but be prepared that a) the costs are going to go up and b) having the support network available in other areas of the city.
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Not to mention the NIMBY factor in this city. A more self-righteous, prigishly self-interested crowd is hard to come by in a nation where, till recently, everyone had to depend on his or her neighbours just to live to see next spring. Generally speaking, I love Toronto, that feudal insularity is one of the really ugly aspects of this burg. Yeah, everyone's keen to help the homeless... till you want to house them on THEIR block.
 
LP:

Oh don't I remember - there is a city policy of building any new shelters in every ward and it was adopted by council a few years ago, but by gawd, the debate around THAT one...

AoD
 
Hydrogen said:
Okay; we all have different angles on panhandling, and we all know that a portion are scammers (people who otherwise need not panhandle, but do so anyway), the interesting thing would be to find out how they come to pick this role, and how they view the people they beg from. Like many of you, I just can't imagine how ashamed I would feel doing something like this.
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Really really interesting point, here, Hydrogen. Like that "ashamed" part. It isn't even that. I goes far deeper. Like "terror". Your worst nightmare.

When I see Toronto's homeless, inside me it's "There but for the Grace of God go I."

I've seen them. In sleeping bags. At night. In the dead of winter. And the worst of all, I just walk or drive past.
 
Originally Posted by lordmandeep
Why do you guys always make fun and ridicule the people who speak common sense... moronic idealists like you let Hitler take over Europe before they saw the reality of what was happening.

Well, it is unrelated to homelessness but you see the point of my historical example.

The worst way to solve a problem is to ignore it. Any educated man would know this and i know you are one.
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and then:

[B said:
Hydrogen;[/B]112290]Hate to inform you, but I wasn't around when Hitler came to power. Also, it was just a little more than a case of idealism that got him there (and one could argue that Hitler was, himself, an idealist of sorts).

Concerning ridicule, since you quoted me, allow me to point out that I was merely echoing your own words made in earlier posts.

And as for your spectacular invocation of common sense, allow me to paraphrase Albert Einstein who suggested that common sense is the collected prejudices acquired by age eighteen.

Platitudes should never be confused with problem-solving.
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Hydrogen, Lordmandeep makes an excellent point. I've even cut-and-pasted it into my Quote-Keeper. This part:

"The worst way to solve a problem is to ignore it. Any educated man would know this and I know you are one."

And strip all of Lordmandeep's contributions here down to just one sentence, then it's this one:

"The worst way to solve a problem is to ignore it."

His comment forced me to reflect on a recent Torstar article about Miller.

Paragraph 1.

"Days before he was re-elected mayor, David Miller said: "Our city is stronger, thanks to sound fiscal management and new partnerships with the federal and provincial governments to bring hundreds of millions of dollars of new investment in policing, transit, child care and the waterfront."

Paragraph 4.

"Torontonians returned Miller to city hall. But within months, citizens were brooding over a very different Toronto, one where community centres are to be closed on Mondays, libraries on Sundays, sidewalks left snow-covered. What went wrong?"

And now I hear Lordmandeep:

"The worst way to solve a problem is to ignore it."

And I'm wondering if he's right --that ignoring is indeed the worst way --or there's something even worster..
 
The downtown core is a mecca for the homeless because that's where the shelters are, not vice versa. Redesign the big shelters into smaller but more numerous shelters, and make sure every ward in the city has an equal share.
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I agree Admiral Beez. But it would take a politician with lots of guts to drop the hammer. 1. No more panhandling. 2. No more living on the street. 3. All of metro T.O. has to be part of the solution (if not the GTA, where are you Queen's Park?) It's very important to separate political leanings and endless debates about cures for poverty, and care for the mentally ill with the immediate problem. A politician needs to have the guts to say "I'm fixing the symptoms right now". Trying to combine the cure for these complex social ills with the immediate problem at hand is too politically charged and stifling. It will take several levels of government and many agencies to deal with all of the causes. Living on the street and panhandling cannot be an option, it ends right now.
 
jozl:

And of course, once the problem is out of sight, out of mind (assuming THAT can be achieved in the first place, which is a big if), the political will to deal with the underlying issues will simply drop to zero. Fait accompli.

AoD
 
the political will to deal with the underlying issues will simply drop to zero. Fait accompli.
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Can you really predict the future AlvinofDiaspar. And do you think the political will now exists to deal with the issue? Meanwhile the problem festers.
 
beggars, and the destitute really have been a problem since dawn of civilization, and I really doubt that we can fix this ageless problem.
 
A homeless shelter on Lake Ontario? Yes round up all the homeless and put them on a boat/ship. Where shall we ship them too?

But I'm nice so here's my proposal: set up an "employment agency for homeless" on the ship. I reckon many "homeless" would make excellent day labourers at all the under-staffed construction sites around the city. $100-$200/day working is better than panning!

Then we'll find another boat--a sail boat without engine?--and put all the politicians and inactive whiners (such as myself;)? aboard and push 'em off--if they make it to Buffalo I'd be happy but if they sailed for Old Spain--all the better:)
 
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