Hike taxes more, Board urges

[tempperm]

The point is that some people are paying far more for those services solely on the basis of a property evaluation that they have little control over.

And if they're not happy they can move.

 

[afransen]

Those people are wealthy and can afford to pay. They are literally sitting on a gold-mine of home equity. They can't exactly cry poor.

 

[Glen]

I have made exactly zero dollars worth of profit off of the residential property that I live, in and have been paying property tax on, since I bought it in 1990. It makes perfect sense that a business occupying a property for the same length of time, and making profits as a result of generating wealth there, should pay far, far more tax than I do.

And here is where your property tax goes... at page three here.

Keep in mind that the figures in the chart do not on average represent the actual cost. They are based on the proportion of property tax that goes towards it (Property tax makes up 42% of the budget income). So to get a more accurate account of the actual cost multiply the figures by 2.38. That would give you a good approximation of the total expense for each program. Now multiple each item by .8 to account for the residential portion. What that shows is that the city spends on average of $4140 per household on expenses like Police, Fire, Ambulance, Parks, Libraries, etc. Note that most of these expenses are predominantly for residents and are usually referred to in city budgets as 'citizen centred services'. Furthermore that $4140 per household figure does not include capital expenses or education tax, where businesses pay seven times as much.

So to imply that you, and all residents, are getting ripped off and businesses are profiting from being in Toronto is patently false.

 

[afransen]

Thanks Glen... that's what I was driving at.

 

[paraone]

Those people are wealthy and can afford to pay. They are literally sitting on a gold-mine of home equity. They can't exactly cry poor.

Funny I own a home, I'm anything but wealthy. And I'm not sure I'm sitting on a gold-mine, it more resembles a very old home with a leaky foundation, a roof that needs replacing and old cast-iron drainage that has to be replaced. Seems like I'm shelling out all my gold.

 

[Urban Shocker]

And if this special interest group representing corporate freeloaders gets their way you'll be shelling out a lot more of it to keep them afloat.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Indeed. alfransen's beloved corporate freeloaders make money off of their properties all the time, but paraone will only do so if and when he sells it - and meanwhile must put up with large property tax increases as a result of CVA.

 

[afransen]

Whether or not the home requires repair, if it is assessed at a high value, that is either what it is approximately worth on the market or you should appeal the valuation. If it's the former, you have a valuable asset; sorry, no tears from me.

Now, you won't hear me arguing that property tax is a very good way of taxing people, or even very logical. But, in terms of the tax burden between homeowners/residents and business, business carries a larger proportion than in other municipalities nearby. You all are deliberately failing to observe this.

I don't have any particular love for businesses or hatred for home-owners. I'm just laying out the facts: if you want business to actually locate in Toronto in order to pay taxes, they can't be too excessive in relation to Toronto's neighbours. It also cannot be denied that Toronto residents pay a lower level of property tax than their suburban counterparts.

You need to shake your Dipper heads and realise that businesses are not evil. They do not exist to be punished. They provide employment to the citizens of Toronto, so that they may afford the homes in which they live, and they pay a majority of the property tax in this city. They also do not consume city services in the same way that residents do. Toronto should be looking to foster increased investment in the city, not punishing it. If you can't see that, at least the leaders at City Hall do.

 

[Chuck]

I don't understand what the issue is here. If you live in this city, you benefit from the services that the city provides. Whether or not you go to the library, take swimming lessons, or even use public transit, you still have a sidewalk to walk on. You still drive your car on a paved road. You're still protected by the police, and can go to a restaurant knowing that it is maintained to a certain standard of cleanliness. Everyone should pay up and stop complaining.

And as for businesses, they are one of the most fundamental and essential components of this and any other city and need to be kept happy. We can all tolerate degrading transit, pot holes, and crumbling schools to a certain extent. But take away Toronto's job base, and people would leave. As much as I like to say that I choose to live downtown because I like the neighbourhood, I wouldn't think twice about leaving if the only place I could be gainfully employed was 50 km away in the suburbs.

One of the more stressful months I ever had to endure was when my company announced that they would be moving. Given the high concentration of similar companies in the suburbs, I was literally freaking out. Thankfully the company, it's tax dollars, and therefore my tax dollars, stayed downtown.

 

[Hydrogen]

Those people are wealthy and can afford to pay. They are literally sitting on a gold-mine of home equity. They can't exactly cry poor.

That's a silly assessment, and rather short-sighted, too. These people have nothing to do with how their property is evaluated. Some of the highest evaluations are to be found in and around downtown, where effective and efficient land use is maximized. The city derives a considerable portion of its revenues from these areas - particularly when compared to the outer suburbs where property prices and evaluations are lower - and where people are far more likely to drive along more roads used by fewer people that still have to be maintained by city taxes.

What you are suggesting with your statement is, in effect, that only rich people should live downtown, and that others should just sell their homes and leave the city - as that is the only way for them to realize the market value of their home.

Funny I own a home, I'm anything but wealthy. And I'm not sure I'm sitting on a gold-mine, it more resembles a very old home with a leaky foundation, a roof that needs replacing and old cast-iron drainage that has to be replaced. Seems like I'm shelling out all my gold.

Yes, but according to afransen, too bad for you. Time to sell and leave Toronto.

 

[afransen]

As I said previously Hydrogen, I don't think that property tax is a particularly good or even logical tax. But, strictly compared to neighbouring jurisdictions, Toronto taxes its businesses more heavily, and its residents more leniently. I think a tax that had more to do with cost to service the land would make more sense.

 

[Chuck]

Some of the highest evaluations are to be found in and around downtown, where effective and efficient land use is maximized. The city derives a considerable portion of its revenues from these areas - particularly when compared to the outer suburbs where property prices and evaluations are lower - and where people are far more likely to drive along more roads used by fewer people that still have to be maintained by city taxes.

But again, you often get what you pay for. Those who live downtown could be on a subway train less than five minutes after locking their front doors. They only have to wait 4 minutes for a bus, even at 3 in the morning. They can walk to the best public libraries in the city, have over 5 fire stations within a 5 km radius, and can enjoy outdoor skating rinks, pools, parks, street festivals, and the list goes on and on. Is the same true in the suburbs?

 

[Hydrogen]

Do those downtown subway lines and streetcars lose money like many suburban bus routes? Would a 24 hour-a-day bus route make sense in the low density suburbs (where street parking is free - along with all that mall parking)?

Downtown, you can sometimes find 500 or more people living in a building occupying the same area taken up by six suburban homes. The people who live downtown have paid close to - if not more - for their condo dwelling. They use less space, less resources and maximize the value of downtown services, and get to pay more for it all in taxes because of the property evaluation.

As for something like fire services, why should anyone who lives downtown pay more than a suburbanite for the same service?

 

[species5618w]

Basically, yes. You talk as if there is some limitless supply of physicians wanting to pack their bags and move to Canada so they can make $30k a year.

I think I have showed you that there are doctors who would come to Canada and work for $12/hr. I even know doctors who worked as hard labours for many years, what a waste! Sure, they have no choice since they don't have a license, but they still made the choice to come to Canada. I have no illusion that these people will continue to work for that rate for life, but something like 5 years is hardly for life (the foreign doctors I know have to endure much longer than 5 years today) and it's well worth the possibility to practice medicine in Canada in the long term. Sure, they may not be able to make the same ridiculous amount as doctors do today, but rest assured, they will still lead a wealthy life.

 

[species5618w]

Sorry, species5618w... you're way off. No one is going to practice medicine for $30,000. Just the annual fees including malpractice insurance can be up to $30,000. The foreign doctors hired for $12/hour you speak of are not licensed physicians and are not practising medicine.

And what exactly do you have against the College of Physicians? Don't you want physicians to be licensed by a body that regulates the practice of medicine?

Yes, they are practicing medicine. And trust me, these people were head surgeons, front line emergency room doctors, directors of large hospitals back home. And they are the lucky ones. More of them are working as hard labours, computer technicians, accountants, cornor store owners, you name it. What a waste of "skills and talents"!

I have nothing against the college of physicians. Although I think their tactics were shameful and sneaky (like paying UofT to produce less doctors), but that's what any self-serving organization would do. Their job is to maximum their members' pay checks, not to give us a better health care. What bugs me is that we have a self-serving organization that monopolize an industry that is supported by taxpayers' money.